Random questions on 912's

[luke]

Hey, folks. First post here I have a growing interest in 912's -- which I'm a little embarrased to admit stemmed from gawking over the green 912 (or 911?) in 'Spy Game'

I've always been an auto enthusiast, but have never given much thought to classic cars. Mainly because I've always assumed them to be expensive and costly to maintain. After some research, I was surprised to see how inexpensive a good 912 can be

So now I'm pretty much sold on getting myself a 912. I still have a lot of research to do, as to what exactly I want, but it's definitely going to be a 912

Think I could get away with some dumb questions here?

First, what is the most popular year of 912, and why? What was improved?

What were engine options? Fuel injection?

I'm not expecting to run 10's in the 1/4, but I would like it to have some pep. It'll be my daily driver eventually, so I'd like something that can get out of harms way if need be. How quick are they? Assuming a good condition (or rebuilt) engine.

How stiff is stock suspension? Does it stand up well to some spirited driving? How do they handle?

Any recommended reading? I'd like to get a better feel for the history, as well as technical info.

I think thats it? Thanks in advance, folks.

Luke

[wwwcad]

HI Luke,

I'll start things off. Recommended reading, the bare minimum in my estimation:

For engine rebuilding, which is often a necessity, depending on the condition of the car you buy: "Secrets of the Inner Circle" by Harry Pello, available at www.hcpresearch.com

For overall maintenance: "Porsche 912 Handbook" by Mel Kay, Lash Pub., available here through Pelican Parts.

For restore info and some history: "The 911 & 912 Porsche:A restorer's guide to authenticity" by Dr. B. Johnson. Available just about anywhere.

You might also want a parts manual, also available through Pelican and other sources.

I'm not an expert on popular models, but the 1968 model had a bunch of emission control crap on it (I have one but the 2 previous owners stripped all of the control equipment off. Thank God we don't check for that stuff in New York!) So, many folks think that is the year to avoid, but not everyone.

You should know that rust is a major demon with these cars, so a full undercarriage and under carpet inspection is warranted before purchase, or you could get a lot of surprises. Any place there is a rubber seal is a potential place for disaster since old rubber around windows is the biggest culprit for interior rusting. Go to http://www.hillmanimages.com/912/ for lots of info on one man's quest to keep his 912 in top shape. Dave's done a lot or repairs, including rust, and shares his experiences there.

As for engines, 912s only came with the horizontal four cylinder air cooled engine, no fuel injection, around 1582cc displacement. Certain parts can be hard to find, but overall it still seems cheaper than restorng a 911 of similar vintage and certainly less complex. Opps, I forgot the one year run of the 1976 912e which came with the Porsche Type 4 914 engine. Some folks are fond of this car which was produced for only one year. Beside the coupe, Targas where the only other body option as well as sunroofs in the Coupes.

Well, that's about if for now. Got to get to work. I'll let some of the other folks chime in. There's a lot of experience in this crowd!
Good luck.

Bill

[craign]

IMHO............69's are the way to go!

Of course I might be a little biased as that is what I drive. As Bill mentioned rust, rust, rust is the big killer to look for. I was talking to a 911 enthusiast and his comment was that people considered the 912 a "throw away" car back when they were new. People bought them, drove them and didn't maintain them and threw them away when they didn't like them any more, they hadn't spent a ton of money on them so they just didn't take care of them as they might have a more expensive car.

That being said I do think the 69 with the longer wheel base handles better than a short wheel base (early 912), oh boy is that going to draw some ire I can hear it now! Of course I have only driven 2 other pre-69 912's and that was only a short distance so I can't really comment on long term driving of the short wheel base 912.

Dave Hillman has an excellent 912 maintenance site and also maintains a 912 board at www.bay912.org.

Since you indicate you want a daily driver that makes things a whole bunch of fun as you can do all kinds of things to the 912 to make it more fun to drive. There are better experts on engine mods here than I so I will leave it to them to comment on that.

I might suggest keeping your search to California (Nevada/Arizona) original cars as you will find less of a rust problem. I guess I need to rent Spy Game as I keep hearing about the 912 featured in it. I wonder who the owner of that car is??? I know of a nice 912 in Fresno CA that is available, I think it is a 67 but not absolutely sure.

Good Luck

Craig

[greenmonster]

Hey there Luke,

I've been doing "research" for about a year now, so I've run into alot of the answers to your questions. Most can be found on the912 Registry's site map page .

You'll find that you can spend hours reading all the info contained on that site. It's all good, just try not to read it all in just one sitting

Originally posted by luke


First, what is the most popular year of 912, and why? What was improved?

I think it was 1966 that had the greatest number of 912's produced (maybe that's why we see alot of '66 912's forsale).

Check out: 912 registery's History page

What were engine options? Fuel injection?

FI was only available on the 1976 912E (2.0L). On the earlier 912's you could order any size engine as long as it was 1600cc's

I'm not expecting to run 10's in the 1/4, but I would like it to have some pep. It'll be my daily driver eventually, so I'd like something that can get out of harms way if need be. How quick are they? Assuming a good condition (or rebuilt) engine.

Stock 912's will run about 18's in the 1/4. See the 912 registry's spec page for more details.

How stiff is stock suspension? Does it stand up well to some spirited driving? How do they handle?

They handle like a porsche

Any recommended reading? I'd like to get a better feel for the history, as well as technical info.

Along with the other recomended reading posted, check out Dave Hillman's 912 page

Hope this helps,

[Jones Low]

Hi Luke,

My early days of working on cars was due mostly to the lack pf $$. Oil changes and simple DIY projects was a way to save money and keep a car reliable. A 1969 VW bug was about as simple as you could get back in the late 60's. I had a chance to work on some 911's from that era and was keenly aware of the cost of maintaining the six-bangers. In came in a 912 (had the look of a 911, but the engine up keep of a 356, wow, what a combination) and since going fast was not my thing, I knew that my next step up would be a 69-912. I found that 99% of the things I was doing on the bug transferred right over to the 912! Oil changing, valve adjustments, tune-ups, CV joints, wheel bearings. I had to learn how to synch multi carbs and work on disc brakes but it was worth it. Today, though I could pay someone to do the work on my 912, I still enjoy doing it myself. The newer cars might be able to go faster, stop quicker, have heat, have AC, smell better, and other creature comforts, but they cannot compare to the inner satisfaction that one gets from working, fixing, and driving these older cars (and I think this is true of any vintage well kept car).

As others have said, read as much as you can, there is a lot of good info on the Internet, look at many examples, don't fall in love with the first one that comes around, and when you've taken the time, you will know which one you got to have.

My affair began 22 years ago, and I smiled (really it was a grin) when I saw and heard the 912 that Robert Redford drove off in at the end of the Spy Game movie.

Good hunting.

Jones Low
69-912

[mcruickshank]

Stolen from www.912registry.org:
Under the owners section:


Porsche 912 in the movies!
From: Gavin Joule ; Saturday 14, 2001; Hi Rick, My car was used for the upcoming movie 'Spy Game' starring Robert Redford (he drives) and Brad Pitt. So for all 912 spotters worldwide there is a trailer where you get a glimpse towards the end! Heres the link.. http://www.spygame.net/ It would seem the film is out Stateside in November.

Gavin Joule

[luke]

Wow Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I've written down those titles, and bookmarked the links

one year run of the 1976 912e which came with the Porsche Type 4 914 engine.

Sounds interesting I can think of a million questions on that, but I'll spare ya. Heh...more of a reason to get a book.

That being said I do think the 69 with the longer wheel base handles better than a short wheel base (early 912), oh boy is that going to draw some ire I can hear it now!

I'm kind of leaning toward a later model. Either 69 or 76. Longer wheelbase is nice, and updated FI engine of the 912e sounds like a good combo Whats up with the 7 year production gap, BTW?

Stock 912's will run about 18's in the 1/4. See the 912 registry's spec page for more details.

Thats perfect. A straight line is a boring way to drive anyways.

They handle like a porsche

Good answer I'm getting too excited about this....heh

The newer cars might be able to go faster, stop quicker, have heat, have AC, smell better, and other creature comforts, but they cannot compare to the inner satisfaction that one gets from working, fixing, and driving these older cars (and I think this is true of any vintage well kept car).

I was just poking around at a VW/Porsche/Audi dealer. They had a BEAUTIFUL black 911 coupe on the showroom floor. I sat in it, and didn't really like what I saw. (not that I am anywhere close to being able to afford it -- but thats besides the point.) Rubberish dash, power this, digital that. All I could think was that years down the road, the dash would be faded and cracked, the power this and digital that would not work anymore, and the price to fix it all would be HUGE...and not exactly something a do-it-yourselfer could do on weekends. I guess part of the attraction with a 912 is that I would be able to get a feel for how the car works.

Thanks again, everyone!

[912s]

I thought it was a 912 in the movie, but the other day I ran across this on eBay, Kruse International claims to be selling the car from the movie and that it's a 1968 911? Here's the link - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1828189341

[luke]

Wow...well, it sure sounded good anyways.



Thats a damn shame though. I could have done a better job with a can of Krylon.

[craign]

Scot,

I saw that car on Ebay but now how do you explain the previous post "stolen from the 912 registry" about 3 posts before yours??

Somebody ain't bein truthful here.......



Craig

[912s]

Yep, someone’s telling a big whopper, I'm not sure who, but if you freeze frame the movie in the scene where you have a rear view of the car it looks like it says 912....

In my humble opinion the car should have had a greater role, it basically opened and closed the movie.

[wwwcad]

Hi Luke,

Not sure about the 7 year gap between the last 912 and the 1976 912e. I've read some theories about the reason the 912 was produced: Porsche had a bunch of 356 engines left over after discontinuing that model and decided to make a downscaled 911. Not a bad theory if you think about the logic of using inventory efficiently.

If that's true, then maybe the 912e was an experiment to see if the fuel injected 914 engine could revive interst in the 912 mark. Guess it didn't work, huh? They only made about 2,099 912e cars in 1976. Not a lot compared to around 30,000 912s prior to that.

Good luck looking, I think all of the 912s are fine little cars and you can't beat the prices for what you get.

Regards,
Bill

[C. Clark]

Hello Luke,
I'm new to the Porsche car, I bought mine in June of last year. That said in the last 11 months I've gained a considerable amount of respect and information on what these specials little cars are about. I think Bill is right about the 912Es, not to say they are bad cars, but only a few where produced, also just before that time we were dealing with that gas shortage crap so auto makers were trying anything to keep the high performance people around.

I drive a 69, I like the flared fenders the longer wheelbase and some of the interior details better than the earlier models. I drove a 67 not long ago and could really not feel the difference in performance.

Which ever you choose I believe this, the 912 is more realistic money wise and workability wise compared to the early 911, the 912 is a more dependable car, easier to work on, and has the same body and interior as the faster 911, that's not to say that I'll never own a 911 though.
Good luck and happy motoring,
Chas.

[wwwcad]

Hey Chas,

I'm with you. I know someday I'll probably have to let my son have the 912 since he's a partner in our restoration project. Then I'll just have to buy another one! Or a 911 if I can't find the 912 I'd want. Ain't life grand? So many choices, so little time and money!!

Regards,
Bill

[greenmonster]

Hey there,

There was a thread on this on the 911 forum (actually a couple of threads). Here's the link to the most recent one. (the first post has has a link to the other thread).

Spy Game 911 Back on eBay

Needless to say it looks like a 912 was used for most of the shots.

Enjoy,

[Efrain68912]

Regarding the 7 year gap in the 912 production run; Porsche phased out the 912 at the end of 1969 to make room for the 914. Porsche then killed the 912 in 1975, but needed a low end model for 1976 as the 914's replacement, the 924, wouldn't be ready until 1977. So Porsche took a couple thousand 911's, stuffed in the type 4 motor from the 914, and voila, the 912e.

Whatever car you choose, check for rust, check again, check everywhere. Don't buy the first car you see; the people here in So Cal who are looking for 912s have been generally dissapointed with what they have found. Where are you located? If you're in California, you should come to either a Bay 912 or So Cal 912 meeting.

[dferlauto]

Just go out & start looking at cars and be patient. There are a lot of dogs out there... lots of nice looking cars with the soul of a rat. about every 10th car you see may be worthwile considering.There are a lot of $4 k cars available, but you'll probably end up spending that much aqain when you get it home .
Look for service history & for an engine rebuild in the last 30k miles and try to get a feeling for how much of the costly work has already been done. MEMORIZE THE 912 REGISTRY COMPLETE & READ ALL THE POSTS YOU CAN AT THIS SITE. You can develop a good critical eye quickly. The line between joy and misery is very close with these cars so do your homework!

[mcruickshank]

Here is the link to where I found the info about the 912 in Spy Game.

http://www.912registry.org/archives/owners/iowners16.htm
There is a link to the email address of Gavin Joule. I bet he knows the whole story.


-Mark

[craign]

Postings on the 911 board say it was someone elses 912 that appeared in the movie. Or possibly that there were 2 different 912's used.

It seems that the 911 on Ebay is being represented correctly.

[craign]

Found this on the 911 board, sounds like they did use the 911 and 912 in the movie.........


Kurt here...Three pages in so I guess it’s time for me to weigh in. Most of you are correct except for the number of cars used. The car that was the close up and benchmark car was a 68 912 that was filmed in the U.K. The car you see in some overhead shots and some of the wide shots leaving the CIA is a rusty 68 912 with a respray that caused some of the other cars to be in the movie. (More on this later) The car you see in Georgetown flying up P street and in ground shots around the Jefferson memorial and some of the overhead shots was a white 68 911 with a rough respray. (The production company bought it up North on the day the "problems" started and had it resprayed and dried it overnight on the flatbed ride down) My car, an Irish green 69 912, was used in some of the low angle road shots in the end of the movie where Redford is leaving the CIA. Frankly I am surprised that my car was in the movie at all. It is, in my opinion, very different from the benchmark car, but then again, I don’t make movies. So I think the total number of Porsches is four. The 68 912 Redford drives on a set in the U.K., the rusty 68 912, the 68 911 and my 69 912.
The production studio that was used for the DC location work, Think Productions, had a 68 912 that they rented from a company that supplies cars for movies and other film uses. It was to be used for the outside DC shots but on the day of filming, as they had a chopper with a gyrocam and film crew waiting, (Major $$$ burn rate) The car, a total rust bucket, developed clogged arteries from a (surprise!) rusty gas tank and conked out. They hastily installed a portable boat type gas tank but the rust had infiltrated the carbs. The car was ALL rust. The front suspension was held together with some badly welded in angle iron and the pan was shot.
That night I got a call from the head of Think Productions. She got my name from the local 356 grapevine and wanted to know if I had a green 912. I informed her that I had heard some time ago that a studio was looking for a 68 but I had a 69. She said no problem. She asked me if it was Kelly green and I told her no, it’s Irish green and Porsche didn’t make a Kelly green in 68 or 69. She said thanks but no thanks so I told her to also look at 67s and 911s as well. They look the same and there are a lot more of them left. The next day they come to Summit Point during a Potomac PCA driving clinic looking for a 67 or 68 911 or 912. After looking at my car they realize that their Kelly is really my Irish and now they REALY want me to come back to DC. After some preliminary negotiation$ I did. They looked it over and thought it was OK to use so we worked out the compensation. I worked with the art director to hide the track stuff and to make it look more like the benchmark car. (He sprayed men’s bald spot paint on the exposed aftermarket sway bars and rear swing arms) :-)
The next day they filmed it at a location not 3 minutes from my house. When I told production manager how close I lived he laughed and couldn’t believe it. Come to find out they spent weeks looking all over the east coast for, in his words, “A (expletive) green 912”
I have no idea why a 912 was called for. Perhaps it was in the book or something. Absolutely no damage to my car (the bald spot paint washed right off) and some good $ to boot. All in all it was a blast to do. Everyone I dealt with from the art director to the grips to the director was friendly. Tony Scott wanted to chat about what he called “The race car” A 912 race car...Now that’s funny!

Porchebrothers, Sorry, the $ is proof enough for me. I’m not much of a “story teller” and if you think that rough resprayed 911 is “over restored” then I got a car and a story to $ell you!
ScotMclean, The car had already been filmed prior to it’s injestation of the speed clip that obliterated the #1 Piston and cylinder. The heads machined up well and the car is back on track. Thanks much.

(Shameless plug to follow) Duane Spenser has published the follow up to his excellent book on 356 performance with the all-new “Porsche 356 Performance Guide” (RPM Auto books 888-237-4359) This one is geared towards the 356 (and 912) owner that is looking for more performance without going to a full race motor. Lots of good info on suspension, step-by-step motor building and converting a 912 motor to fit into a 356. Included is an extensive listing of where to get almost anything you might need to keep your 356 happy. As an added bonus on the back cover there is a photo of a 912 that is rumored to have been used in a recent movie as well as a 2 page article on it’s motor and the motor build project.