Ball bearing in my vacum line?????? Service Shops Suck Part 2

bash555 · 11:04 PM

OK, now I am totally lost.

(if anybody needs an update, look at my other post about service shop)

So, tonight, I go check my timing.

I first pulled the Distrib to check my point gap.
It's close enough, so I leave it alone and re-install it.

I hook on the skinnier hose on the front of the vacum canister (advance) and then go to put on the fatter hose on the backside of the vacum canister (retard).

Well, upon putting on this hose, it won't go on all the way and it's "clinking" like metal on metal!

WTF??? So I shine a flashlight into the hose and low and behold, there is a small BB or Ball Bearing shoved down it.

Now, why would this be here when it's never been in there before?
I have my theories, but I want to hear yours.

I couldn't get it out, so I cut that part of the hose off and now it's too short. Trip to Kragen to get more hose.

$3.98 later, I install the new hose sans BB and it fires right up and revs freely!! (unlike before)

I go and readjust the air bleed on the throttle body for a better idle. ( they had it twisted out to almost 8 turns)

Now then, pay close attention; here's were it gets weird.

I originally took the car in for a electrical Fuel Pump issue.

Before I started up (after I put on the new Vac hose) , I was twisting the distributor with the ignition on; and when I twisted all the way left, I would hear the fuel pump relay re-initialize the fuel pump.

These two things seem to have no correlation.
Why would twisting the distrib all the way left with the ignition on cause the fuel pump relay to re-int the fuel pump.

And then, while I was adjusting the air bleed screw, the car stumbled and died.

It will not re-start.

ANY ONE???

I hate giving out what I think is wrong because it taints people's thought process, but I think it's the Fuel Injection points.

If I put my meter on one of the Fuel injector's, what should I normally read while the engine is cranking??

this whole trip has gone from bad to worse.

Anyone in Huntington Beach, CA whith knowledge??

oh yeah, I believe the thermoswitch is next to the distrib on the left when you twist it; but I don't see how this would cause the fuel pump relay to re-int the fuel pump.

it's a 71 1.7litre

Jim Smolka · 05-31-2003, 05:32 AM

Sounds as if you have a D-Jet system.
If the fuel pump is not running, check the fuel pump relay system.
The ground for the FP relay goes though the fuel injection brain.
It is possible to remove the FP relay and connect the 2 power contacts for the fuel pump with a jumper wire.

mkinne · 05-31-2003, 06:27 AM

RE: fuel pump re-init
I believe that the FI trigger points in the bottom of the dizzy tell the brain that the engine is rotating. When the engine is rotating, the brain tells the fuel pump to run. My guess is you turned the dizzy far enough to make / break a contact and the brain sent out a 3 sec pulse to the relay. Will only happen with ignition on. I think this is normal.

- Matt

Bruce Allert · 05-31-2003, 07:25 AM

I have heard of a BB being placed in the small line of the decel valve to lower a high idle problem. Could the BB or ball bearing from within the dizzy have gotten lose and found its way into the hose? This is the BB that resides under the concaved metal part that holds the lower points plate down but still allows it to move sideways, to & fro with vacuum advance.
bruce

Bleyseng · Bleyseng's Garage

Sounds like they used the BB to disable the vacuum retard on the distributor. When you removed it, it threw the whole idle timing adjustment off, same as you turning the idle bleed. You need to retime the engine statically so it will idle. Also open the air bleed up some so it idle, even if its fast.
Why did you pull the distributor to check the point gap?? If you had it out did you check the FI points?
Geoff

bash555 · 05-31-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

RE: fuel pump re-init
I believe that the FI trigger points in the bottom of the dizzy tell the brain that the engine is rotating. When the engine is rotating, the brain tells the fuel pump to run. My guess is you turned the dizzy far enough to make / break a contact and the brain sent out a 3 sec pulse to the relay. Will only happen with ignition on. I think this is normal.

Ok, cool, I thought that this might be it, but the engine will not even start up now?? My guess, the Fuel Inj. are too worn.
Whats the best way to test them?

I think I will just replace them anyway.

Quote:

Sounds as if you have a D-Jet system.
If the fuel pump is not running, check the fuel pump relay system.
The ground for the FP relay goes though the fuel injection brain.
It is possible to remove the FP relay and connect the 2 power contacts for the fuel pump with a jumper wire.

Cool , thanks.

Quote:

I have heard of a BB being placed in the small line of the decel valve to lower a high idle problem. Could the BB or ball bearing from within the dizzy have gotten lose and found its way into the hose? This is the BB that resides under the concaved metal part that holds the lower points plate down but still allows it to move sideways, to & fro with vacuum advance.
bruce

Nope, that BB was still there on the plate underneath the holder.
Also, I think it's too big to fit.

Quote:

Sounds like they used the BB to disable the vacuum retard on the distributor. When you removed it, it threw the whole idle timing adjustment off, same as you turning the idle bleed. You need to retime the engine statically so it will idle. Also open the air bleed up some so it idle, even if its fast.
Why did you pull the distributor to check the point gap?? If you had it out did you check the FI points?

Ok, I understand how the BB would retard the the timing.
But the deal is, the timing was so fubar'd when I got it back from the shop, the owner of the shop had to pump the gas pedal just to start it.
So why would they put a BB in it??
It wouldn't rev past 3000 rpm; it had no power, would barely idle, and it overheated like a b**ch all the way home.

So, I pulled the distrib; checked the Point gap, re-intalled, replaced vacuum hose's (w/o BB), set the static time as close as possible.

And what do ya know, the dam thing fired right up without me even in the car and purred like a kitten, just like it has for the last 4 years.
Why should I be better at this than a shop with 26 years exp.?

The idle was high, so I turned the air bleed down from full out to almost 3 turns out; idled fine for a bit, then died; would not re-start.

I think my Fuel Inj. points are bad.
the Fuel pump is re-int. everytime I turn the ignition on, so I think that's fine.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

OK, you need three things to run: Fuel, air (compression), and spark. Check for each of those things--smell for fuel at the tailpipe or stick the injectors in jars and crank the starter; tape a spare spark plug to a ground and plug a plug wire into it and check for spark; do a compression test. If you have all three of these, then the problem is either in when the spark happens, or how much fuel you are getting.

If you get it started and still have problems, then:
Step 0: Check for loose or disconnected wires of all kinds; check for blown fuses (remember that they can look fine but still be blown.)
Step 1: Verify the ignition. All of it--go through it very very very carefully.
Step 2: Verify the routing and condition of the vacuum hoses. Check for vacuum leaks in those, and elsewhere in the intake system. (Popular ones that are hard to find: Injector seals, the seam of the plenum, the reinforcements in the plenum, intake runner to head gaskets. There are more, of course.)
Step 3: Verify that you have 29 PSI of fuel pressure.
Step 4: Make sure the "basic engine" is in good shape--the valves are in adjustment and the engine has good compression readings.
Step 5: Start checking the FI components. Brad Anders' D-jet website has all the D-jet info that is known in the world, just about. http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders .

If you just start replacing FI parts, you will have a lot of bills and a lot of new parts and very often still have the same problem.

--DD

bash555 · 06-04-2003, 12:08 AM

well, how about them apples.

I ordered up some new FI trigger points from Pelican and popped them in tonight.

I'm a monkeys uncle! (for you brits "Bob's yer Uncle!" )
the dam thing runs!!

Purrs like a kitten too.

Also, one other thing; how often are Brand New BOSCH condensor's bad?

They did replace the points and Cond. with New BOSCH, but the points were already burning and pitting after just the drive home.

So, I ordered up 2 new sets with my FI trigger points and installed.

I did take a capacitence measurement with my Fluke meter of the two New condensor's from Pelican. They both measured around 209 nano farads. The one that they installed measured 187 nano farads.
I am not sure what min. spec is , but that is enough to pit the points I guess.

As far as your trigger points go; both sides made good connections.
But, one side had a slightly more worn down rubbing block.
Also, the steel springs that controlled the movement of the points, one side was weaker than the other. And both were at least half as strong as the brand new set.
(anyone care to guess the rev limit of the trigger points?)

Soooo, as far as trigger points go, it's seems to be more of a question of spring tension.

Thanks again to everyone; especially Dave.

from searching on posts for FI problems and trigger points; I keep finding Dave's posts and pbanders posts.
Without these two, I feel our community would be adrift.

Oh yeah, no offense Dave, I didn't mean any dis-repesct by going with Step 5 first

; I just had a hard look at them the other day and felt they needed to be retired; regardless of what else was wrong.

Bruce Allert · 06-04-2003, 06:47 AM

I've had a couple condensors be bad bought new. Sure throws a whammy in the soup when your trying to get yer teener running, eh?
bruce

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

No offense taken. Sometimes you get a feeling for where the problem is. Sometimes you're right, and you save yourself a lot of troubleshooting grunt-work. Sometimes you're wrong and you spend money you didn't have to.

Your intuition was good--that's a useful skill to have!!

--DD

JohnB · 06-04-2003, 04:42 PM

Bash, I'm not sure what you were measuring with your Fluke meter but if it isn't one that's made to read capacitance you'll only be reading the initial resistance of the capacitor.

As for the variation in the readings, capacitors (condensers), at least the cheap ones, are made to within -20 to +80% of their rated value. I'd think the spread you measured wouldn't be out of normal but then again I don't know what "typical" is for a condenser. I'm interested to find out what a nominal value is for an automotive condenser.