V8 cooling issue

[sean_V8_914]

one smaLL HOSE goes to the bypass flow in teh intake manifold. the other one comes from the highest point on the rad. it purges it's self, no air burping required. note the tubular aluminum engine bar mount. does anyone recognize this water pump?

[skline]

Need better pics of the water pump. The one i am putting in mine is a Renegade, in fact most of the parts are Renegade. The radiator I got from Rod Simpson and the pilot bearing will come from Kennedy. I called Rod Simpson first and he wanted 40.00 for the pilot bearing and when I showed him my flywheel he said his wouldnt work. So I called Renegade since it is their kit and they want 75.00 for the pilot bearing kit. I called Kennedy and they told me the pilot bearing is not specific to the flywheel as it is pressed into the end of the crankshaft. They sell the kit for 20.00 so its coming from them. I will order it tomorrow. Amazing what you find out when you shop around.

[John2kx]

Originally posted by skline
Need better pics of the water pump. The one i am putting in mine is a Renegade, in fact most of the parts are Renegade. The radiator I got from Rod Simpson and the pilot bearing will come from Kennedy. I called Rod Simpson first and he wanted 40.00 for the pilot bearing and when I showed him my flywheel he said his wouldnt work. So I called Renegade since it is their kit and they want 75.00 for the pilot bearing kit. I called Kennedy and they told me the pilot bearing is not specific to the flywheel as it is pressed into the end of the crankshaft. They sell the kit for 20.00 so its coming from them. I will order it tomorrow. Amazing what you find out when you shop around.

The pilot bearing can been seen in attached pic for anyone interested. Mine came from RH. Pretty simple piece consisting of a aluminum disk about the size of a 50 cent piece. A roller bearing is pressed into the center and the whole thing is press fit into crankshaft as you mentioned. Shaft from transmission fits into roller bearing. I don't see how the use of any flywheel available would make a difference. I myself did not know how any of this stuff really worked until seeing it first hand.

[John2kx]

Guy,

I like your design. You should have no problem with airflow to radiator and the additional bracing looks great. Thanks for the pics, as they sure clear things up.

John

[John2kx]

Originally posted by sean_V8_914

air exits under teh car and haas an 18
'inch fan
I installed teh high flow thermostat, moved the teemp sensor from the thermostat housing to the intake manifold, added a straighter hose from thermostat to the expansion tank. these things made a small improvement but I dont have enough room on teh street to push it hard enough to reaally know since symptoms only show after long term flogging on the track or on a long road trip to AZ. pipes to teh rad are 1.25 inch

Sean,

I looked at the Milodan t/s (#16400) and it is the same as what I'm using packaged as a Mr. Gasket part. But, there is room for improvement to your system based on the pics you posted. Your expansion tank "appears" to be missing a critical piece necessary to keep air out of system. If you don't have another tank that your expansion tank can overflow to, you'll introduce air into system when engine cools down. In other words, when the water temperature approaches 150F, water will expand. This combined with pressure building in system will cause relief valve in radiator cap to lift and allow water to escape. If your expansion tank has a line that dumps excess overboard (no catch tank), this is where the problem starts. Instead of the vacuum pulling water back into system during cooldown, it will draw in air. This may be the source of your overheating problems. If you have a overflow tank, disregard everything I just mentioned. More pictures would clear things up (water pump, better view or descrition of how hoses on expansion tank are routed).

I don't see how you are "bypassing intake" with one of the small hoses on expansion tank routed to intake. Unless this hose is connected down stream of thermostat (t/s housing or return hose to radiator), it is just connecting tank into top of intake manifold. I've seen alot of converted cars but have never seen anyone run a separate line from top of radiator to engine bay as a means to remove air. Maybe this will work but I've never seen it done before.

I'll post a few pics of stuff I have seen work in the past few years. When I say work, I mean cars with several thousand miles on them running 400 hp small blocks in the Georgia heat without cooling issues. Not to say there weren't cooling issues at the beginning, but the problems were identified as we learned and problems corrected.

John

[John2kx]

The orange car belongs to Bob out of Athens, Ga. He has designed his conversion himself and his cooling system works. It was originally put on the road with a electric pump but this did not work.

If you look at his side by side tank, the one of the right is essentially what your running in your car. The tank on left is what is missing from your system (if in fact the clear line at top of your expansion tank dumps overboard).

John

[John2kx]

This is how water expansion is controlled in my car. Clear hose goes to inlet fitting on bottom of expansion tank. Black hose is overflow to ground. Note: with about 1" of coolant in clear expansion tank from a cold start, tank level will increase about 2-3" if it is hot outside and really run hard. It takes several hours for the entire system to cooldown and vacuum effect to pull contents of expansion tank back into cooling system. This is also a good way to monitor for leaks. The level comes back the exact starting point when allowed to cool overnight.

[skline]

Oh this is great, I am getting more free information and learning. Great pictures guys, and thank you for passing your knowledge on so others can see and learn.

[John2kx]

Originally posted by AJS
John2kx,

.........One more request: What are the dimensions of the RH radiator cooling area (area not including the tanks)?

Andy

Andy,

Entire radiator is 28-1/2" wide x 13-15/16" tall

Fin area is 26-3/16" wide x 12-3/4" tall

John

[AJS]

Guys, thanks for all the pic's and info!!

John2kx, the radiator fin area is significantly larger than the area of the opening in front. BTW, the general rule for the exit area is 1.7 times that of the inlet area, though there are a great nimber of things that would influence this especiallly in something like the 914 conversion. I think using the undercar intake as a suppliment to the frontal intake would be a great advantage....interesting.

Andy

[Bob Bischoff]

Speaking of cooling systems I have been able to purchase a couple of C&R nascar take off radiators. The one in the picture will fit in the front trunk of a 914. It needs to set at a different angle than the RH radiator due to the larger size. These rads. are 4 to 5 inches thick and some come with built in oil coolers. They are all double pass with 2 1.25 inch 21 fin/per inch cores These come from a top 5 nascar team.
I've got a set of 12 inch cooling fans and will make a full aluminum shroud for them.
Im thinking of making a kit with all of mounting hardware and hose,surge tanks and overflow and try to sell it as a kit.

Wondered if there would be any intrest it them??

[John2kx]

Sean,

Bob's hardware should take care of your cooling issue if the little things suggested do not work. If that thing can cool a 750 hp Nascar engine with the small inlet hole they typically use, it should be overkill in our cars.

John

[AJS]

Originally posted by John2kx
Sean,

Bob's hardware should take care of your cooling issue if the little things suggested do not work. If that thing can cool a 750 hp Nascar engine with the small inlet hole they typically use, it should be overkill in our cars.

John

Remember, that's at 180+ MPH. Velocity of the air across the fins makes a huge difference, which is one of the fundamental problems with the 914 setup at roadgoing speeds: small opening, big radiator, low velocity.

Andy

[Bob Bischoff]

They also do alot of drafting with almost no forced airflow.

The core is 26"x15". There is a big difference with the speedway radiators and the short track ones. The shop I got this from had about 50/60 radiators any size or shape.

Last summer in 95 deg. heat I ran my car with different size air openings. I taped over the inlet and ran from idle to freeway speeds to see how small of a opening I could get away with.

The results suprized me. On the next car I'll start with a smaller opening and go larger if needed.

Bob

[AJS]

Originally posted by Bob Bischoff
They also do alot of drafting with almost no forced airflow.

The core is 26"x15". There is a big difference with the speedway radiators and the short track ones. The shop I got this from had about 50/60 radiators any size or shape.

Last summer in 95 deg. heat I ran my car with different size air openings. I taped over the inlet and ran from idle to freeway speeds to see how small of a opening I could get away with.

The results suprized me. On the next car I'll start with a smaller opening and go larger if needed.

Bob

This is why they have to pull out into clean air to keep the motors from overheating. That's also why they have different radiators on short track cars....lower speeds, etc.

Bob, nothing like good old fashioned testing to confirm results!! My experience with roadrace stuff, is that with good air flow management, the radiator can be downsized quite a bit (saving the weight of the radiator and the extra water. With the 914, you basically have what you have; therein lies the challenge. BTW, I like your NASCAR take-off idea.

Cheers,

Andy

[Bob Bischoff]

[. BTW, I like your NASCAR take-off idea.


Cheers,

Andy [/B][/QUOTE]


The best nascar take off. The shop takes older SB2.2 engines and converts them for the street with lower compression 11/1 and no restrictor plates. Dyno's in the 650 to 700 hp range.


Bob



355 – 360 cubic inches Compression ratio 10:1 runs on “pump” gas
Block: Chevy BowTie, 4 Bolt Mains, Splayed Billet Caps
Pistons: Forged Aluminum Alloy, J&E or equal, Bore 4.125
Crank: Billet Sonny Bryant, Stroke 3.335, 37-45 lbs. 2.0 or 2.1 rod journals
Rods: Carrillo or Lentz 6.20” H beam. Carr Bolts
ATI Balancer
Heads: 18 Deg. CNC Ported Aluminum Chevy Cylinder Heads w/2.150 Titanium Intake Valves, 1.6000 St.St. exhaust valves, Comp Cams triple valve springs, Titanium retainers and keys, Copper Berylium Valve Seats, Heads Flow 330 cfm @ .700 lift.
Cast Aluminum Chevy Valve Covers, personalized for owner
Jesel shaft mounted roller rockers 1.65 ratio
Cam: Competition Cams Solid roller, 110 Deg. Centerline, Lift= 605 intake and exhaust, Duration 300 intake and exhaust
Lifters: Competition Cams true roller lifters
Wilson Intake manifold and Tapered 4 Hole Spacer 2.00" Part# 004150
Quick Fuel 750 cfm “Street Carb”
Oil System: wet sump: Milodan Internal Pump w/ competition sheetmetal pan
Oil System: dry sump, external pump Barnes or equal
Specifications subject to change (typical specs. may be adjusted for customer requirements)

[sean_V8_914]

do you think thata engine would be easy to drive on teh street. the best part about my v8 car is that it is better than a 4 banger in every waay thata is imortant to me. less noise, easier to drive in traaffic anad haas power to spare. 650 SBC ponies might not be as user friendly. afater taking the car to the track for 2 days, I could see thata ana inexperienced driver could hurt himself or others with 650 hp on the street.

[Bob Bischoff]

Originally posted by sean_V8_914
do you think thata engine would be easy to drive on teh street. the best part about my v8 car is that it is better than a 4 banger in every waay thata is imortant to me. less noise, easier to drive in traaffic anad haas power to spare. 650 SBC ponies might not be as user friendly. afater taking the car to the track for 2 days, I could see thata ana inexperienced driver could hurt himself or others with 650 hp on the street.

No I don't think it would make a very good engine for a street 914. Not to mention the price for one of these ($12/15K) you could get 3 or 4 LS1/LS6 engines.

Which I do think would be the ultimite 914 powerplant.

Bob

[sean_V8_914]

the "A" is sticking on my key boaard

I haad to go baack anad read page 2 of the thead. I paasted it all into a word document fro reference or to share with the next V8 914 rookie

John: thankas for explaining the overflow taank function. I do have anaa over flow tank. it is mounted 12" lower thana the expansion tank (bad?) Towaard the rear of teh heads where the intake flanage mounts there are two small waater passages, I use these to alaow small amaount of flow even when thermostat is closed. I learned this back in my V8 Vega days. since it is a high point in the cooling system, it pushes the air out and into the top of teh exp tank.

my car does not get hot in traFFIC (low flow air and water) it only gets hot when I romp on it real hard or keep the rpms up for 20-30 minutes

thanks guys, i'll post more pics in a bit

[sean_V8_914]

LS1 yum yum! I wouldnt mind converting to modern FI.
Guy, I am still going to finish building the Adriaatic blue v8 car. are you running yet?