2.2s or 3.0 in 914/6?

[jjemg]

Im trying to collect my final thoughts on what motor to use in my 914/6 project a 2.2S or the3.0 sc engine.a point to note I will be using a motified to 914 911 e/s 901 trans. will new plate

First.... 3.0 will need flywheel... dont have one If I decide to go that route where in the world can I find one of those?Will this power kill little gear box or create cluch shutter?

2 ....Can I use the 3.0 case with the 2.0 or2.4/2.7 crank?.. this should give the oil pressure i need for the tensioners and a much stonger case if this is possible an not stress out my little gear box

3.... Is the a large hp difference between the 2.2S and3.0 SC with single plug using MSD ignition? I must use single plug due to poor man syndrome

Last... This going to be a street car do I need to go with torque bias or 40% LSD?

I really thank all of you for the help and will post pics when I get started this fall.
Jimmy

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

1.... For the flywheel, see: http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/9144/POR_9144_sixcon_pg3.htm#item15 . It's listed as NLA, but I would call and ask. It might be available again now. If not there, Kennedy Engineering Products should be able to get them.

The 3.0 will make life somewhat hard on the 901-based transmission, but a fresh box should be able to live for a good while. Just remember, no dumping the clutch at high revs in 1st gear!!

2.... I'm not sure. My first inclination is to say "nope", but I don't really know. Then again, why bother with a 2.2 liter displacement if you've got 3.0 liters available? You'll be paying the weight penalty for the heavier crankcase anyway, so why not go up to 3 liters? Using "S" cams, and porting and such to match, will really boost the power of the 3-liter.

3... Not a really huge difference, but it's there! 2.2 ~= 175 HP. 3.0 ~= 200 HP with carbs and the 914-6 headers. If you "build" the 3.0, you can get more out of it than that. Oh, and I believe that the 3.0 makes quite a bit more lower-end torque than the 2.2 does. Displacement will do that for you.

4... You don't need to do either. It'll probably be more fun if you do, but it will be plenty of fun without, too! I'd say torque-biasing for the street, because you don't have to rebuild it every 40K miles.

--DD

[DonNewton]

Do no discount the 2.7! If the engine is done correctly (thermal reactor delete, good rebuild, case savers, etc), the engine is as reliable as any other, and makes really good power besides. Guess you could say that I'm biased, seeing has how I have one in my 914. . .

[jjemg]

Don,

I'm not discounting anything at this time but I don't have the correct crank or a 7R case. I haven't bought the parts yet or gotten started so I will keep it in mind. If I had both of those, I'd really like a 2.8...but, boy, done right that'll cost more than I can afford.



DD,

OK.....let's explore the 2.2 for just a minute. I have been collecting these parts to do this project for years and have talked to several members. The engine I have is a 2.2S MFI complete but I don't know anything about it. ( I hope there is someone that can guide me through the wiring changes) What is the best way to get the maximum amount of HP without twin plugging but utilizing the 3.0l oil pump for the tensioners? I realize I'll need to use case savers. Are the 3R bearing webs going to be alright?
Jimmy

[BigD9146gt]

Jimmy, maybe consider the 3.2 motronic over the 3.0 built motor... If your going to do all the work yourself, then your going to come out cheaper with the 2.2 or 3.0... But, write down all the things you are really considering doing to the motors, price everything out, even the cost if you send the case out for cleaning. Call around to the places you will send the parts to get machined, and ask what they would recommend doing while its apart. These projects always get bigger while doing it because "its already apart, might as well".

If your really after the 2.2 or 3.0, and have a good line on either, if it was me, i'd go for that. But if i'm going to consider spending 5-6 grand on a rebuild, and its VERY possible, the drivability of the 3.2 is amazing. My boss has one with a chip and mass air flow, and i'm building a chassis for one too. I've been driving his all week and its got plenty of power at the top end, and great grunt at the low end. Good fuel economy (if there is such a thing) on the freeway, about 23+ mpg, the fuel injection is great. I gun it getting on the freeway every chance i get.

Now as Dave said, with the 200+hp range, just be considerate of 1st and 2nd gear. You can still gun it occationaly, just don't drop the clutch....

Good luck with whatever engine you choose, hope it goes well. For engine advice, i'd drop in on the 911 engine forum and do some searches and ask them.- Don.

[BURN-BROS]

I am partial to early mfi engine, but the 3.0l will be the better motor.

[jjemg]

Don, You know, this plan was originally for a 915 conversion to match the tailhousing on my 914-6 and go with the bigger motor but after doing the cost analysis, the price was spirally into orbit! Unfortunatley, I've got more good food on my plate than I can eat. I do agree with you though that the 3.2 engine with injection is arguably the best air cooled engine produced. I'm just simply trying to not destroy my 6 but at the same time 110hp with the parts that I already have.

Aaron, From what I have learned, the mfi injection is very responsive, which would be good but you are right, the big picture of the 3.0l is the best engine. I just afraid I'm going to overstress my "little" 901 gearbox. I've seen and heard of several 901s with great big engines in front of them but I'm looking for strength balanced with reliability. You know, it would be easy to spend $20000 and I can think of no more pleasure but my kids would kick me out of the house with my half completed project (and hey, take this part with you DAD)

[BURN-BROS]

Since this will be a street car, The 901 will be o.k. It is ultimately a compromise but people are racing 901s with 3.6s and they last about a season of hard driving. Just don't get wild in 1st.

If you went to a 3.2 its not that much of a leap to a 3.6 financially, both kick ass. The 3.3 turbo, if you can do the mods yourself can be around tha same price as the 3.6

[BigD9146gt]

Originally posted by BURN-BROS
Since this will be a street car, The 901 will be o.k. It is ultimately a compromise but people are racing 901s with 3.6s and they last about a season of hard driving. Just don't get wild in 1st.

If you went to a 3.2 its not that much of a leap to a 3.6 financially, both kick ass. The 3.3 turbo, if you can do the mods yourself can be around tha same price as the 3.6

Aaron, i'd beg to differ... big time!

I'm; not trying to rag on you, but lets look at this.

The 3.2 does have to have an extra oil cooler, the 3.6 is manditory. A 3.2 you can get for about $6000. Though i've seen 3.6's go for the same, they tend to be a few thousand more on average for the low mile ones. (and i'm talking 993, not 964).

The 3.2 can get way with the 901 box, like you stated, being nice to 1st and 2nd. The 3.6, starting at around 270hp, the 901 wouldn't even be an option in my opinion. The 915 would be the next option, the general sensus i get is that it will take 350 reliably, and now theres $1500 for a good 915 and another $2000 for the Wevo conversion. The G50 is out of the question price wise.

The 3.3 needs the 930 trans. Thats why the factory gave it to it... the 915 just wasn't enough. More $$$$$ for that

Honestly, I would like to hear from someone that their 3.2 swap sucked, but that hasn't happened yet. And everyone i've talked to hasen't heard it either. The project: motor, trans adapter ring, clutch and throwout bearing, should be no more than $7000. All of the other hardware, oil lines, tank, exhaust, are giong to be needed regardless of what your final motor is. As for the exhaust, the 1 5/8" headers are prefered for the 3.2, so that might set you back over original smaller 2.0L headers.

Jimmy, a 6 is a 6. I'd be happy with a 2.0L at this point just to drive my car! If your going to just make it and put it in, thats a good call. If your going to build a sweet stroked motor off of a 2.4 or 2.7, at the end, you'll most likely have had the $ for a 3.2, and the spare parts of the 2.4 or 2.7 to part out and help pay for the 3.2. Regardless, if you have fun doing it, its never a investment.

Cheers, Don.

[BURN-BROS]

I can't argue if you buy the highest price that you see running around.

My engine and tranny was about the same price as a 3.6vario . Its not the norm, but I usually look for the lowest price. Most used engines/tranny should be 25% of bluebook on car.

I never said a 3.2 sucks, Just that they are priced 500.00 less than low miled 3.6(verified L.a. porsche dismantlers, non varioramed last year). You do have the added cost of driveblock removal, oilcooler,flywheel, etc. A 3.2 conversion is about 8,000.00. a 3.6 about 10,000.00 for a complete conversion. If you spend 8500.00 on a 3.6 it throws the numbers off alot. I personaly wouldn't pay the money. I applaude you if you did a 3.2 for 7000.00, kinda reminds me of me

The 3.3 will be done for about the same money as the 3.6, barring any noseeums that could occur. Its just my experience that I have formed these #s and they are definitely possible. Call me crazy

I perfer the 930 trans with turbo applications, but an all alloy 915 can be made to live with it. Keep in mind the weight of the 930 vs a 914. It totally depends on the application. Stock boost, street only without burnouts I would expect it to hold up. Its not ideal but do-able.

I agree most with your tranny statements. He has a 901 with a 3.0, should work fine. the 3.2 and up requires either a compromise in driving style or cash for trans updates. I am totally sure I missed something, I am posting while working.

And Don, one more thing..................................love your car.

[BigD9146gt]

Aaron, i appologize if i led you to think i was refuring to you about the 3.2 sucking. What i should of just said was that everyone who has done a 3.2 has been insainly happy, and wished they had done it sooner(excluding original 6's and hardcore projects like yours).

Most of the prices i go off of are mixed between salvage yards like LAP dissmatler and posts here on pelican. I like to stick to the salvage yards because you can usually get a small warrenty on the motor, which is better than nothing. You got a great deal with your 3.3 and trans, how much does your 930 trans go for? I just like to keep everything on the table so that people reading can keep it all into perspective. Even i forget about all of the costs associated with these projects. I'm only going to be out time for my motor, the money will come back. I've got a friend that goes to auctions, so when the time comes, i'm going to pick up a wreck and part out the rest. Should be able to brake even.

The only problem i've seen with a 3.2 motor and the 901 trans is the bearings on the intermediate plate. I think they start to walk when the trans gets hot, so for mine i'm going to make a trany pump, cooler, and squirters and see if it keeps the intermediate plate in good shape.

Your project sounds like a great way to go for a conversion, and the twin plug, simply awesome! Any pics of the car and parts todate?

I have my first 914 chassis thats a bit banged up, but still straight. I'm going to put a 3.6, maybe turbo'd, with a G50 into it one day. I'll use the chassis as a suspention reference to make a full tube chassis GT1 copy, and add the occupency of the McLaren F1 three seater with the driver being in the middle. I've always been a big fan of being able to scare two friends instead of one at a time. Or if your a lady killer, having two lovely ladies to occumpany you.

Will you be at the GAF?

Cheers, Don.

[BURN-BROS]

No apology needed, I see your point. I drove marv's 3.2 in temecula and it is like a v8. Good power. I picked my stuff up for $7500.00. Good price with average miles and good leakdown.

Yes on the 901 int plate. I did post that Randy Beck runs a 901 with his 3.6 and they last about a season of racing. I believe they are stock trannies too. Doesn't mean I would ignore the problem though.

No pics yet(that are noteworthy). All my $ is in my projects that I hope will fund my addiction. Here is the post from the 911 forum.

Twin Plug Goodness...Look what I made this weekend!

The company I work for is branching out to prototyping and patternmaking from job shopping. We just got a 5 axis that could do a complete car.

Is the GAf this weekend?

[BigD9146gt]

Originally posted by BURN-BROS

Is the GAf this weekend?

Sure is!

5 axis, nice. who makes it?

I've got some new friends across the way who have a 5 axis machine, thing costs $600,000. Full A/C climit control, chip remover, optical part locator, they make small turbines and such... unbeleivable. Plus, my favorite, a rapid protoype machine. I'm making boxster mono block mounts for 914/911, and the rear of the 911 was tricky. But being able to take dimesions, put it all into solidworks and take it over there, have them wip it out in a day, bolt it up and see if my dimesions are right. Its pricelss, but all they charge is $50. Its based on plaster aperis and works like a printer. Technology is a wonderful thing.

Don.

[BURN-BROS]

The 5 axis is made by motionmaster. It is 10' x 10' with about 6' of z.
Nothing fancy just big. The rapid proto machine that you are referring to is from z corp and runs with cornstartch. We are testing one that runs on thermal plastic which gives a better resolution to the part.

50 bucks is hard to beat. I love technology.

I would like to go to GAF, hope I can make it.

[iamchappy]

I have been running a turbocharged 3.0 running 10lbs of boost with a 901 trans with LSD and short gears most of the summer without problems, I have a fresh spare 901 with stock gearing in it in case the other fails me.
If driven properly I cant see why the 901 wont hold up on the street, if your going to use the car for raceing and hard drag strip launches then you should consider a different transmission. But the 901 will work as it has for me so far. Dont let it hold up the project as you can always change it out later.
The 3.0 in it's stock form will work fine as long as you dont launch it hard in first, even a 4 can break a 901 in first. (ask me how I know. )

[wevoid]

We bought a Z-Corp rapid Proto machine in 1999, it has made a huge difference to how we develop designs and products.
We make models as a service bureau - on a low key scale - which has allowed us to own the equipment for more fun projects too.

We also use it to go directly from RP model to investment casting prototypes, as tooling free luxury that allows for some cool experiments at affordable costs.

Regards

Hayden

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Hi, Hayden! Good to see you commenting.

Guys, if you're ever up here in the Bay Area, it's worth contacting Hayden and stopping by the shop (if he agrees; he may want to hide a couple of the things he's doing first though!). Really nifty place, even compared to Peridot Dan's shop!

And the ideas....

--DD

[BURN-BROS]

Hayden, we are looking into one by solidscape. Cool machine, but the costs to run it do not seem good. Do you have any problems with the print head? Each machine seems to have a downfall.

[wevoid]

Tracey is actually the whiz on the Z-Corp machine. She has a feel for the operating expenses, print head life etc.
When I am allowed to play with it, I always have decent luck, I can only recall a few instances where print head failure was an issue and nearly always Tracey can tell me, I'm not surprised..... that one was XXX old etc.
We have the early version machine with the old print head, the newer machine is supposed to have longer print head life, and cheaper replacement parts (just like a Porsche...)
However, also just like a Porsche, the older machines are over engineered and we expect ours to last a long time.
The used machines like ours can be had for about $10K now, the maintenance is still $6K per year and there are no more upgrades likely for the old machine. (The package was about $70K in 1999)
There is a lot that can be learned form their Tech guys, likel we recently learned that the powder pigment used to dye the binder fluid will usually reduce print head life to under 50% of un-dyed binder. We now print everything in clear binder.
We use both the corn starch (only choice for casting) and the plaster based material, both have advantages.
We did assist Z-Corp with the "Z-Cast" project, that manifold thing they use in the photos is actually a #1 cylinder intake runner for a 911 engine project we were conceptualizing, that was a donation from us to Z-Corp.

Regards

Hayden

[BigD9146gt]

Hayden, i was just on the site. Where was the 911 peice located?