The engine is out, now what?

[farleyd]

Hi all, this week-end, we took the engine out of the 914. Now questions are rising...

1) Can i use Gunk to degrease it? If not, what else?
2) I plan to replace p/c? How to be sure they need to?
3) If i replace, what benefit will i have buying bigger p/c?
4) What is the maximum size can i use keeping:
- stock cooling
- stock crankshaft/cam/heads
- reliability
I thought 96mm? What HP would i get?

Thanks for your patience.

[Bleyseng]

What size is the motor that you have removed from your 914? 1.7,1.8 or 2.0L?
To degrease a motor, I pull all the FI or carbs then all the cooling tin and fan off. Plug up the manifolds with rags then go to a cheap car wash (the kind with a pressure wand) that lets you degrease. For 2 bucks in quarters you can get alot done and it's their mess.
Geoff

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76 914 2.0L

[farleyd]

Well, how stupid i am.... i have a 1974 2.0L.

Just want to add a bit more HP without going too deep. As i presume in car that has 140,000mi, maybe the p/c are done. If i replace, what should i use to squeez out more HP keeping reliablity and stock items as possible.

Thanks to all.

[DDS]

Hi Sabin:

I'm in the same boat as you know, and here's what I did.
Took off all the stuff described above, didn't go to the coin-op car wash but should have. I degreased with a brush and solvent, which would be best after the car-wash. You might want to take off the clutch and flywheel at this point too, as the engine will be easier to manhandle. Look for oil leaks (likely) at the ends of the crank before you wash the engine. Actually, look everywhere.
I bought an engine stand for $75 from cdn tire. I mounted the engine to the stand by drilling a 1X1 X 8" long piece of box section steel from the local metal supermarket to adapt the stock bracket on the stand to the engine mount. This blocks the oil pump, but it is way cheaper than the type 4 or porsche engine stand.
I had the engine tin dip-stripped and painted it with Platicote enting enamel over rust destroyer primer.
Even though the compression was good, I pulled the top end off my engine, but did not split the cases. I'm glad I did. Three rings were broken, all of the exhaust valves had lots of shaft taper and the guides were gone.
Head work is expensive.
I elected to 'upsize' all valves because the incremental cost of the SS replacements was not that much more that replacing the stock sodium valves, and I intend to build a more radical engine later anyway. About $700 cdn IIRC.
On that note, I just honed the cylinders and re-ringed. (about $100cdn) New P&C were not sensible for me as I plan to do a stroker motor next year.
I don't think you can get much more out of the stock engine if you want to keep the stock FI. If I understand correctly, euro pistons to raise the CR will give you about 5hp more, but anything that will increase displacement will require different induction ($700-$1000 cdn) which will require splitting the cases and changing the cam (more bucks)and well, since you're there and spending all that money anyway you'd better do all the bearings and have it balanced, and well, at 140K you'd better check all tolerances and well, you get the idea.
Order a gasket set now, about $100cdn, plus a set of crank seals. I ordered a dial gauge from Lee valley to check the end play ($44 cdn) and also needed shims, pilot bearing and felt washer.
I bought two books, Tom Wilson's How to book (a must) and "how to hot rod VW engines" (not by wilson) which is interesting in that it tells what folks typically do to VWs when looking for hp. It has no type 4 stuff, so it is of interest only, but I'm glad I bought it.
Hope that helps. Good luck.

Dave

Dave

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The 96mm P&Cs will give you 2055cc displacement on a stock 2.0 crank. I know one 914 that was running 9:1 compression on a 2055cc motor using stock (tweaked) D-jet. He sucked a plastic grocery bag and overheated the motor one day, so he swapped in new 96es and shimmed to bring the compression down to 8.5:1. As far as I know, that motor is still running happily around the area.

I also know someone with a 2.2 liter 914 motor that is running tweaked D-jet.

If you're not comfortable messing with the mixture (and taking the accompanying risks), stick with stock. If you don't mind the tinkering, particularly if you have a mixture gauge, go for the extra displacement. What the heck!

Note that the larger P&Cs will put you out of the less-modified classes in most autocross/time trial/DE/racing venues.

--DD

[Bleyseng]

I agree with Dave go with the 96mm P&C's. For the $ they are worth it (about $350). Bump up the compression to 8 to 1 atleast but no more than 8.5 to 1 for the street. At 140,000 miles have the heads rebuilt, it's amazing what good valves will do for power. My concern is that the bottom end is tired too with that many miles and should be checked. Once you start taking things apart why not go all the way. Have the rods rebuilt, put in new bearings, all new seals, check the cam and lifters or replace. It doen't take that much to rebuilt one of these engines and you will be suprised how much power a fresh 2.1L has.
Geoff

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76 914 2.0L

[farleyd]

Hey thanks for the precious help.

What benefit one 96mm p/c kit has over a Euro p/c kit?
I know that the 96mm would have about a 5HP more than the Euro, but what else?

I am not racing neither autocrossing, just want a strong reliable car. Ill go as far as i can ($) in my rebuilt. A lot of part will be checked and see...

[Bleyseng]

whoops, I forgot about the HP question. My 2.1L dynoed out at 91-92 rear wheel HP. Which is about 100 to 105 BHP.I still haven't had time to adjust the D-Jet. I would watch for the upcoming article in Grassroots Motorsports on getting 120 HP out of a stock D-jet 2.0L.
Geoff

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76 914 2.0L

[farleyd]

Geoff, what is your set-up? What p/c kit do you have?
I am juggling with the idea of replacing the p/c, but should i? Shouldnt i put the money on rebuilding the heads -new valves, valve guides, etc- and just honed and re-ring?
Can p/c deteriorate to the point of having them changed?
Sorry to say that i am on a steap learning curve.... and that you help is invaluable. Take care?
go see my 914 at http://www.farleyd.com/914.html

[farleyd]

Sorry, the URL is:

http://www.farleydw.com/914.html

[CHA914]

Farleyd,

I would not hone and re-ring the p/c's...did that once and could not get the rings to re-seal(heard later from a porsche race mechanic that has a history with the 914 that its hard to get the new rings to re-seal) Others will probably disagree, but I think you will be much happier if you go with a head rebuild and the euro p/c...trust me, taking that engine out the second time in a month is no fun at all and not worth the $200 you saved ;P
What I have found works best for me, is to find a machine shop that you trust, and that knows the type 4 engine, take the motor to him and just have him check it out, they can clean it throughly, they can check the heads, the wear on the p/c's, and give the bearings a look without cracking the case...and then you know for sure what needs to be done and you won't have to go through the hell of droping the engine twice in a months time...
Anyway, this is what I have learned from my experience, and untill I have the proper work area and tools, I will leave the engine building to the pros...less stress and it would have been less money in the long run.

Just my .02,

Tony
'74 914 2.0L

[Jake Raby]

Here are my thoughts and experiences.........

Alot of 96mm cylinder sets are junk!!! Even the cylinders that come with the JE FORGED pistons and rings are terriable castings, and are very loose fitting at the skirts, even right out of the box. The cylinders are no where close to true at either end and are basically sloppy crafted units. The head sealing end will leak in less than a week, unless it is properly trued..

We were having to fight with ring end gaps, skirt interferance and weird expansion too much, and decided to do something about it.

I have come up with a solution to the problem...We modify std 94mm cylinders to 96mm, and set our own skirt clearances. The German cylinders(used) are taken out 2 whole mm's so all distortion is removed and a completely new surface is created. We hone these with a 400 grit stone, set to.0025-.003 skirt interferance and use custom made rings.

The rings are of domestic nature (not GRANT!!) We were having rings with .025 ring end gaps right out of the box, way too excessive for the street. The rings we use now are file fit and work great.

The 96's used to be a cheap way out for more displacement...not anymore, after all this work euro 94's are cheaper..

The problem is that so many companies are trying to make mass production parts, quality control is nil...We have had cylinder problems forever, but not any more...

I supply these in all my engine kits, otherwise, we do not sell them individually...

[DDS]

Sorry to steer you wrong re-the FI and disp - I was under the impression that the stock FI was essentially 'fixed'.
Time to search the archives on D-jet tweaking! Thanks all.

Dave

[Bleyseng]

Dave,
From my experience, a motor with 140,000 miles on it can be pretty tired. I would have a mechanic check the motor for wear. I don't like to put new or rebuilt heads on a old engine. It always seem to cause problems down the lines.
yes, spend the money on rebuilt heads!Done by a good shop too.
I like the 96mm P&C's but they did have to be reworked by my engine builder. But again have the p&c's checked by a engine mechanic to see if they can be re-used. If not and you have the money try the 96mm p&c from Jake that sounds like a great product. I looked at the 95MM kits,same kind of a deal.
You mention reliability so I would tear the engine down and rebuild the bottom end. Make sure to have the engine balanced ie. all the spinning parts. It really makes for a smooth engine.
The heads of a 2.0L are pretty good stock but you can spend money on them to make them better.(porting and polishing)
As for the cooling of the engine, make sure all the tin parts are there and fit right. Replace any rubber seals that are missing! This is what helps the most to keep the engine cool. I have seen quite a few 914 that get hot, then I look in the engine compartment and half of the rubber seals are missing, no engine shelf seals etc. Hope this helps... Oh, nice pictures of the car. Looks like that car DD used to drive, baby blue.
Geoff

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76 914 2.0L

[farleyd]

I had one idea. I have a digital camera, and last week end we did a get together - dont smile - and get a lot of stuff done: front struts, engine out, rear hubs/bearings out, sway-bar, etc.

I will update my web page for you too see the progress. Maybe, with the help of some pics, some simple questions might be solved.

I am still poundering which p/c i will buy. This forum is helping a lot. Everyone’s on a budget, a sure thing.

Expect me to post a lot of questions, id like to have most opinions possible, take no offense guys.

Status: the engine, impeller, tin, oil cooler, alt, etc are out. Leaving me with the core engine. What’s next?

[SteveStromberg]

Call one of these Dealers near you and aks them for which machine shop they use. Take your case and parts and have them look at it, and give you report on the condition of your engine.Dont spend a Bunch of money fixing bad heads,if they need lots of $$$$ thrown at them get different heads.Steve

http://www.us.porsche.com/isapi/national/dealers/ergebnis.asp