Considering DIY rebuild, need guidance and opinions please! (kinda long)

[Mark Howard]

Hi guys. Been a while since I have been on the board.

I finished my resto project last summer (mostly body and interior), but the 1.8 in the car was still reasonably fresh and ran well, so I didn't bother with a major rebuild. This was my first resto ever, so it was also a learning process. I'm really happy with how the car came out, back to stock look and really sharp for a 26 year old car!

In my quest for knowledge about these things, I am considering a rebuild. I have never torn down an automobile engine before, just lawnmower type stuff. I currently have 3 Type IV engines, the one in the car (1.8, runs okay, leaks some oil, very little power), a spare (an old "junker" with crappy heads that came off a parts car) and a 1.8 OEM from another parts car that visually looks okay and turns by hand. The last two were free.

I bought, and have not yet received the book "How to rebuild your air-cooled VW engine" which covers the Type IV 914 engine. I'm thinking of reading the book at length and tearing into the "Junker" engine just to see how these things work and if I have the capability to rebuild one. Furthermore, I have a local wrench that will give me free technical advice.

After the learning curve rapidly rises, I'm then considering taking the other 1.8 (OEM) engine and rebuilding it with a performance cam, big bore, webers, SSIs, etc, etc, etc to get some additional ponies in the car and fix the oil leaks.

What I have right now is alot of time and some cash to drop (dangerous combo, huh?) and I really want to LEARN from this so I can work up to a 911 engine someday for a -6 conversion. I have a fully outfitted shop in my backyard.

Does this sound like a reasonable technique, or am I pissing in the wind? I figure the worst that can happen is the "junker" never gets put back together and I wasted $14.95 on a book and alot of hand cleaner. The best that can happen is I can answer questions for the next guy who wants to learn and how successful my experience was.

Guidance and opinions please!!!!

[David McLaughlin]

It sounds like your on the right track except that if I were goint to take the time to rebuild a motor, I would rebuild the best one i can get for my money. Why would you 'build' a 1.8 when the 2.0s don't seem that much more expensive and you could get a lot more power.

After I figure out some of this DIY stuff, I want to buy a 3.0 six to play with before droping it into my car. It's easy to take apart, it's harder to put 'em back together.

[Mark Howard]

But I am so ignorant at this point, I'm not even sure what to do. I have all the 1.8 case and crank and stuff, You think I should find a tired 2.0 instead? What is the real difference between a 1.8 and a 2.0 besides the heads??? I have alot to learn.

[Zeke]

When you receive the book, a lot of your ?'s will be answered. Especially as to the differences in the motors.

The learning curve has two aspects. One is the motor assembly process itself. A lot more going on here than a lawn mower. But hey, it's not a gear driven overhead cam engine either.

The other curve is when you don't go stock, the choices are expodential in numbers. Finding the right combination on your own when adding a cam here and a little compression there is just plain gambling. The professionals you read here and at Shop Talk Forums have already tried all the combinations. Look into one of their kits of matched parts.

Then go into the shop and sweat it out when you can't remember if you did some process the night before or not, second guessing yourself constantly, waking up in the middle ot the night and wanting to go out and "just take a peek to see if I did that right," or where does this go? when you know you are past that point.

All that extra time and cash? No Problem. It'll be taken care of.

[SteveStromberg]

Buy Jake Raby's video. He he is over on the shop talk forum.
Steve

[Otto]

The only problem with the difference between a 1.8 and a 2.0 is the cost of the fuel injection parts. If you could find a 2.0 core, you would be better off. I saw a fuel injected 2.0 on ebay that had a recent overhaul, complete from headers to clutch to air cleaner sell for $850.00. What a deal!!! I missed the purchase, but made a deal with the lucky guy who got it and got the fuel injection from him. Out here in CA it is illegal to build something that is not smog legal. OTTO

[DDS]

I'm in the middle of the same process, but the parts are all bought and I'm ready to reassemble. A few lessons I've learned, by no means conclusive (or necessarily accurate)

1) If you want stock FI, that will define the limits of your upgrades. (I know, I know....)

2) If you are unsure how far you want to go, determine the condition of the heads you will use first. If your heads are shot, you will spend bucks rebuilding anyway and may want to consider bigger valves and a larger displacement engine, etc... as the incremental cost of upgrading vs a stock rebuild isn't huge. (the cost of headwork is big regardless - a large proportion of the total rebuild cost.) If your heads are decent and require only a 'freshening' you can work to a much smaller budget if that is a significant constraint. 1.8 heads are a good starting point for anything.

3) Plan what you want - this means decide on the displacement and how you will achieve it, CR, cam and induction. CC the heads and use the CR calc spreadsheet to play with options - this will help you determine the required piston dish and deck height. (I did this after purchasing 7cc dish pistons (NPR 96's brand new very cheap) and now have to take a significant flycut to get the CR near my target.) Also, T4 pinned pistons basically limit you to T4 rods, which diminishes your options should you want a stroker. My local engine builder says he chooses pistons LAST. While this is especially true when you can't shim jug bases, I would still agree for VW stuff.

4) Jake's video is great, also Wilson's book, Bill Fisher's ancient "how to hot rod Volkswagen engines" This bbs and the Shoptalk forums.

My engine will be as follows:

Case checked and bead blasted, oil galley plugs repaced by pipe plugs.

NPR 96 mm pistons and cylinders (which caused me to rule out stroking the engine and forced me to take a deep flycut)
Stock crank and rods, resized and bushed rods, polished crank, new rod nuts. (because they were in GC and I would have had to get new pistons and cyls to go stroker and sell the carbs too)

FAT FC442 cam - Because greg told me to uses it and I had to get import some other stuff from FAT.

Rebuilt 42DCNF carbs from a maserati - 'cause they were inexpensive and local and compact and I have lots of spares including different venturi sizes and different sizes of cast velocity stacks, tons of jets, etc..... Got shorty manifolds from European Motorsports, and K&N filters - this engine will be very low.
Pierce Manifolds was the best source for weber bits I found by far.

shot 2.0 Heads comletely rebuilt with 44X38 valves from FAT.
Welded, ported and flycut and decked .060 from stock. HD single springs, 911 adjusters on 1.7 arms, solid rocker spacers 9:1 CR. Chambers cc'd to within 1cc i the end.

New T4 oil pump.

Ignition undetermined - probably crane XR3000 and bosch 050 distributor.

911 6 spring clutch disk, rebuilt stock pressure plate, machined stock weight flywheel.

SS heat exchangers and modified 911 hot dog muffler for now.

All rotating parts precision balanced.

[unclerichy]

If you go with the 2 liter make sure the heads are decent. 4 to 5 years ago they sold for $1000 ea new. I don't even know if you can find them new anymore and the used ones are creeping up in price. They have a habit of dropping valve seats - ask me how I know. Maybe the other guys on the board know how to avoid this problem.

Rich
'73 1.7
'74 2.0

[Otto]

In the few years that we have been rebuilding motors/heads we have NEVER had a seat come out of our heads. We know how to install them properly.. Has anyone that had a motor built by OTTO had a seat fall out??????????? RSVP OTTO

[Howard H]

Mark, I rebuilt my 2.0 a couple of years ago, and like you, my only other rebuild was a Briggs & Stratton.

I decided to take an engine class at a local community college. It worked out great. I had an instructor to bounce questions/ideas off of. Additionally, the shop had all of the equipment I needed to regrind valves and seats, to remove the spedo drive gear from the crankshaft, etc.

Just a suggestion, but you may want to check into your local community college too.

Howard Henneman

[Mark Howard]

All good info guys!

Otto - no FI for me. I'm a carbs type of guy in my 914. Probably will put a pair of webers on whatever I build.

DDS, you are way ahead of me...just figuring out your acronyms is my next task! I'll keep this post handy so I will know what you did and maybe mimic it. What did all the head work cost you?

Howard H, great idea! A local CC class may just be what the doctor ordered.

I think a tired 2.0 may be the best route to go performance wise, but, since this is just an educational experience for me because my real intent is to do a flat 6 someday, I have what I need case and heads wise already. Reconditioning what I have may meet my desire for the experience, and cost less. I know performance will not be as good with a 1.8, but it is really hard to compare performance of two different VW 4 cylinder engines when my daily driver is a 993! I really have all the speed I need, I guess I'm just dreaming about a really fast, throaty 914!

Took the teener out for a drive today after the weekend wash routine. Despite the obvious oil leaks, she really does run well in the cool weather. Unlike you northern guys who hibernate during the winter, down here my teener hibernates during the summer. Too damn hot from about May through September to drive her. Perfect time for the rebuild!

Later guys, and many thanks.

[DSPTurtle]

Mark, I am by no means the expert on this but... I too am in the middle of what you are trying to do. Going from 1.8 to 2.0 is not as hard as it sounds. As far as I can tell so far, 1.8L heads are better than the 2.0L becasue they are "beefier". They tend to crack less than the 2.0s. So, you don't have to do anything head wise other than the same rebuild you would do for the 1.8. From what I can tell, and have been told, the crank and rods are the key to increasing the displacement. I think the 1.8 has a 66mm strke where the 2.0 has a 71mm stroke. Also, you would be buying Ps&Cs anyway, so getting the 94s or the 96s instead of the 92s should not be a big cost driver. Make sure that you get Ps&Cs that are made for the 2.0L otherwise the pistons will raise out of the cylinders.
The amaxing part to me is how much one of these things costs to rebuild. This is NOT a cheap undertaking. I bought a whole car for $100 with engine and tranny. So far I have spent at least another $500 just on a crank, rods and a pretty sweet cam. I have not even started with the machine work yet (well I did get the small end of the rods rebushed @ $10 per hole ). I don't think the extra $200 bucks to get a crank and rods will blow your overall budget. Go for the 2.0L, that way I will have someone to compare notes with!!!!

[Mark Howard]

Thanks for the info JB. I was thinking there was more I could do to a 1.8 with some internal working. Still waiting on my book so I can start the learning process.

I have set my budget @ $2000, but that includes a set of SS heat exhangers for about $500. I would be interested to know what all the maching cost you, I have no idea at this point. Sounds like you are quite a bit ahead of me, so I may just be comparing notes with you!

mh

[DDS]

I would guess that I have about $700-$900 in the heads - I haven't updated my 914 project cost spreadsheet lately so I can't be sure. IIRC Greg at FAT told me to allow $1500 for a set of really good big-valve heads.

For estimates of machining cost ask FAT for one of their price lists and catalogues or go to RIMCO's site.

http://www.rimcovw.com/

Re 1.8 vs 2.0, the 2.0 has 94 mm bore and 71 mm stroke. the valves are a little bigger on the 2.0 as well. The engine tin is also different because the spark plug is in a different place. (vs 1.7 anyway) You must use 2.0 rods with the 2.0 crank because the rod journal sizes are different - the same basic crank was used with smaller journals ground offset to increase the stroke to 71mm. IIRC the 2.0 had a built in windage tray in the sump others lacked.

I'm only guessing, but you could probably build a fun 'budget' engine with a displacement and CR increase, a cam and carbs with stock 1.8 heads. Spend the machining money on balancing.

Used SS heat enchangers go for $250, why buy new? Note also, 1.7 heat exchangers are similar but usually $50 or so cheaper. I have a set that have the same ID as my 2.0 SS heat exchangers. The 1.7 units typically sell for less, but they must be used with a muffler designed for the 1.7, and the 1.7 hanger as well. (many 1.7 mufflers use the same ID tubing as the 2.0 variant) The upshot is that if you double check the tubing size to be sure, you could use a 1.7 exhaust with confidence.

If you want to learn about head rebuilding, yoh! gave an excellent link in an earlier post
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/valvejob.html

Me lazy. Sorry about the acronyms - CR is compression ratio, cc'ing refers to measuring the cubic centimetre volume of the CC or combustion chamber. You cc the CCs in order to ensure that the CR is equal in all four cylinders. (part of the blueprinting process) T4 refers to Type 4 - our engine, GC means good condition, DDS is me.

Another rambling message. Gotta run.

I have a 2.0 crank and rods if you are interested. Offer or trade? Rods probably need resizing but crank journals need a polishing only - they are within factory spec.

[3D914]

Mark,

My .02

With the engine parts list that you have, you could build a pretty decent 1.8, with new Pistons & Cylinders, and not much more cash. It may not be the ultimate "hot rod" engine, but its a good step for the learning curve you're on. Once through this rebuild, you'll be ready for something more drastic down the road like a Jake Raby 2207.

I'm still enjoying my 74 2.0L which I rebuilt last summer - five months in my garage! I'm no expert mechanic either, but I had the same advantage as you - lots of time. Read, read, read, and read some more. I suggest you pick up a couple of additional 914 books (Haynes & Clymer) - they each seem to have additional details about specific items. I would also suggest you find a trustworthy Porsche 914 garage that's willing to help with things like head machining, etc. Be willing to spend some money with them, and they should be willing to help out when you're stuck. I had my 2.0L heads re-machined for just a few hundred dollars. This included some minor repairs, five-angle machining to valve seats, stainless steel valves & new springs, and new inserts for exhaust studs.

Since then I've had the engine out a second time to trace down an oil drip. Nothing major, but its relatively easy to pull the engine, and a lot easier to get to things - especially underneath the sheet metal. Turned out to be a small leak from the oil pressure sensor, and that #)$)#$*@# oil filler gasket. That bail-wire design is one of the hokiest things I've seen on a car.

Anyway, you'll run into a few frustrations, but most of it is pure enjoyment. Especially when you start that thing up the first time and it just purrs! Way too cool!

Enjoy!

[Wayne 962]

There is a typo in Tom Wilson's book. Pretty confusing too. Check it out in our Q&A:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/914qa/914Q_misc1.htm#10

-Wayne

[DSPTurtle]

I just checked out the RIMCO site...Awesome!!! Only one problem...I live in FL. Is there anyone on the East Coast that is as capable and competitively priced as RIMCO? Or, is there an efficient (read cheap) way to ship that stuff cross country.
Thanks in Advance!!!
JB