Type 1 Crud

[DSPTurtle]

Okay, vent time!!! Why is it that the Type 1 boys can make tons of HP and we are stuck with 100 hp. These guys boast of 150 to 250 hp reliable but we are supposed to be the big block. What am I missing here. All I know is that I am spending a ton of cash on gathering T4 parts that when I compare to comparable T1 parts are a lot less money. What's the deal??? Is it simply a matter of fact that so many more T1s were made or are us T4 guys getting taken to the cleaners because of the "P" name? What gives? Anyone ever retro a teeener to T1 power? Okay, sorry for that but man is it annoying to see these "small blocks" making "cheap" hp.
TIA

[JmuRiz]

Check out Shoptalkforums , go to the Type4um and you'll see that this is not the case. I'm sure Jake from RAT (http://www.aircooledtechnology.com ) will chime in here soon. The Type 1 guys aren't making that 250hp reliably, unless it's a turbo or something. Jake and Shad are working on some serious Type IV's that I would like to get some day. The Nickies are amazing looking cylinders and w/ those forged pistons make a great pair. Give that forum a looksie and see all the great advances Type IV's. I can't wait to save my pennies for one

Nathan

[Rouser]

A T-1 pushing 150 - 250HP "reliably"? I don't think so … Besides, those collection of parts are just hand grenades anyway; it ain't "cheap HP" if you have to do it often. Better off swapping out the tach and installing an egg timer.

Most of the "boast" is a bunch of armchair talk, conveniently leaving out all the "little stuff" (read: problems) i.e. burnt valves, blown cranks, nuked pistons, spun bearings, constant valve adjustments and rebuilds ad nausea. There's still money to be made with T-1's, so why acknowledge T-IV's and mess that up? It's a whole lot easier to bad-mouth the T-IV about its (correctable) shortcomings than to evolve the aircooled design.

The reason the T-1 parts aftermarket is so plentiful is because the T-1 is plentiful, in all its guises (Bugs, Buses, KG's, Things). And as Jake's site will proclaim, the T-IV will cruise all-day-long running 8/10ths without breaking a sweat (or some internals). A small tribute to its robustness.

Don't get caught up believing everything you hear, and half of what you see. Sometimes, you gotta look past the fluff, and seek the long-term solution.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

There's also a minor difference in the definition of "reliable". It seems like the T-I guys define an engine as "reliable" if it will go 30K miles before they have to tear it all down and align-bore the case--again. The T-IV guys think that a motor you have to pop the heads off of every 20K-30K miles is "unreliable". To a T-IV guy, "reliable" seems to mean more like 80K-100K miles before you have to pull anything off of it.

I may be exaggerating, but not a whole lot.

Of course, a lot of the T-I prooblems can be solved with aftermarket parts. Things like aftermarket cases (usually very similar to Type IV cases), aftermarket heads, aftermarket pistons and cylinders, aftermarket cranks and rods... Hey, wait--what makes that motor a Type I again??

--DD

[pbanders]

Another thing to consider is if the car is going to suit your driving needs after it has been modified.

For example, you can convert to carbs and bump up the displacement, and put in a high lift / high duration cam with a lot of overlap, and get some pretty serious HP out of a T4. I know, I used to have a 2.2L carbed engine that was like this that was built by Garettson (sp?), it was near 140 HP when fresh. But as fun as that motor was in its power band, it lacked low-end torque, idled poorly, and sucked down fuel like a fiend and had extremely high emissions. It also didn't like going to altitude, cold starting, hot starting, etc.

If you're going to build a motor for the track, most of the issues above don't matter too much. But if it's a street car that's going to spend most of its life stuck in traffic, its food for thought. Engineering a motor for good street performance with high HP takes more time and $$ than just going for the HP.

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

Well, we build them both...

The difference is torque...torque is always prevelant over HP below 5252 RPM, our TIV engines don't really make power past 4800RPM, so those astonishing HP numbers do not exist as easily.

Look at dyno specs they may say:
"This 2275cc TI makes 195BHP at 7,000 Rpm and 140 lb/ft of torque at 5,500 RPM...any engine will make big power if it can turn higher RPM and still be making power..

and for the TIV:
This 2270cc TIV engine makes 166BHP at, 5,500RPM and 170 Lb/ft of torque at 4,000 RPM.....

These are just general statements..The TI in a 914 would be hairy, no torque and tall gearing would make it wind forever..

Who gives a damn about HP ratings? Torque is what we care about on the dyno, HP is only good for advertisement, and to make people smile.

BTW, I have a TI test engine in my car for the first time in over 3 years, I'm trying my best to break it, it has a few new items inside it that are proving to be great, but there is NO COMPARISON with the real power from the TIV engine.

[DSPTurtle]

I was waiting for Big Dog Raby to chime in... although I have to say, I expected much more of a warm fuzzy.
My frustration is the cost of which it takes to get HP out of the T4. Rebuilding a motor every 30k miles on my "hobby/learn to race" car is not that big a deal. Shoot, it would probably take five years to hit 30k.
But, even if you are willing to do that, it is still not "affordable." How fast do you want to go / how much so you have to spend... well it seems that I can't go as fast with my T4 as others are touting on the same funding levels. DOn't get me wrong, I am not giving up, I am just *****ing cause I am getting so close but the list keeps getting longer (read more $'s). For anyone new to the 914/T4 world, just suck it up and let somebody ship you a built crate motor. I have seen 1st hand Raby's work and boy oh boy, for a few more bucks it would have been in the car by now instead of in pieces still in the garage. Anyone got any good leads on 96mm pistons?
I have now got a pretty good source for used dells!!!
Goodnight and thanks to PP for hosting this psychiatric center!!!

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

DSP, don't worry about it, you are educating yourself...

When it scatters, call em and we'll help you pick up the pieces, if you do it good enough we will have to start from scratch and maybe even with some "Nickies" to boot....

Build it, learn from it and scatter it, thats the process, if you play hard enough it will break, just have as much fun as you can before it happens......I actually find it exciting to see what falls out when I scatter something of my own, and it still happens....I caught one on fire on the Dyno over the weekend, now that was intense!

[Kevin Powers]

i guess the crucitial issue is what rpm range you want your usable power in. having an engine that produces most of its power at 6500-7000? no thanks. in 5th that would probably be around 135 maybe more. i choke on a 10 over @ $118 at any speed.

[JmuRiz]

I agree w/ the usable power reference. I was driving my friend's 2000 mustang GT w/ some nice mods and his Supra twin turbo. For just cruising the town that 'stang was great, got all that touque down low and you were off. Don't get me wrong the Supra was scarry fast...but only when you got it on-boost in the upper RPMs. I think unless you are track driving...or a honda fan, tourque down low is where it's at. When was the last time you had your 914 revving up in the high RPMs for a long period on the street (I usually hit a stoplight first
For a daily driver I think the type IV is the way to go...but now w/ the nickies maybe we can have the best of both worlds

Nathan

[John Rogers]

I guess type 1 or type 4 gets hazy once the machine work starts. I have 2l heads but they have been flowed and have 48mm intakes and recontoured ports, etc. So in reality they aren't really type 4 heads anymore? The same with type 1 engines although they have a better head design to start with with the exhaust at the sides. I recently looked at a tube framed bug to try some drag racing and it made about 300 HP or so with the shot of NOS and since it weighed only 1250 lbs it was like a rocket in the 1/8th mile drags! But, it had to be opened after every race weekend to clean bearings, check springs, etc. Why you ask, well it launched at 6500 RPM and was soft-limited at 10,000 RPM! Granted this was with stock based case, cylinders, heads, etc. To go higher you go with Pauter's or Autocraft's one piece case, dual cylinders and own head design and then you can get up to 700HP or so! But I passed and decided to keep my vintage racer instead! You might say that dollars spend goes up exponentally as HP and hours running goes down the same rate! Good luck.