Building a 914

[Kurt B]

I began this over in the 911 forum, but I'm moving the heart of it here.
Intro: I've a mind to build as close to an exact replica of a 916 as can be managed.
Inspired by Caffee's 916 project...what an amazing car.



I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed over and over in this forum, but my main concern is 'how much rust is too much rust?'

[from 911 forum]

Okay, right about the 190 warren. I would like to put a 3.2 in it, but it quickly becomes cost ineffective for me. But, for hassles, a 3.0 or a 3.2 is the way to go. I know putting a 'bulletproof' 3.0 in there would be the way to go but I'd like to keep the 901 in it, and keep in mind, I have dreams of not killing myself getting the engine in.

As sad and insane as it seems, Kurt 10 thumbs B is going to attempt to put the engine in himself.

With the 3.0 and 3.2 this suddenly becomes a real pain.

Or am I wrong there?

I really am partial to keeping the 901 because then I have a spare 901 tranny in the '75 I have out back collecting dust!

Let me continue to digress here!

Here's another thing--even more important than the engine. I really think I'm joe 914 after all the hell i went through with mine, but what should my rust limit be?

Should I set out looking for one with solid jack points or is that an exercise in futility? If the jack points aren't rusted, I'd feel great about the rest of the car.

My 75 is so rusty, the trunk latches broke. They broke off where they're welded to the chassis. What a *****..jack points were toast when I got the car.

How on earth do I evaluate the inner rust? My 75 isn't one to flex much, and frankly I don't know why. The doors don't become hard to open with me sitting in in the car with the targa top off, so it can't be all bad. But I'd like to NOT deal with any rust if I can manage it. This includes actually being able to actually use the jack points without them breaking as they did on my 75.
Is this in any way realistic?

Sorry to digress but I'm a maelstrom of questions right now.

And finally, I'm open to comments on any of these matters, from the engine I should be looking for to rust, to a year of chassis I should be looking for etc, so feel free to jump right in.

[jabb]

Kurt

Putting a 3.0 vs 2.7 is not more of a problem than the other....
I would go with the 3.0 if you can find a good running one.

The only thing you have to do is modify the flywheel as far as 2.7
vs 3.0 or 3.2. The rest of the conversion is the same.

I would stick with the 914 tranny it should be OK just do not do a lot of burnouts..

I have a 3.0 with webers and headers..... lost of fun lots of go
and th 914 tranmission is fine...... it is 1st gear that is the weak link and I guess lots of track time can overheat the tranny....

I would start with a good soild car.... on the left coast that should not be a problem to find one.....

Have fun you will learn a lot as you go along

[SummerSledSix]

I'll echo what Joe said, we've both been thru the six conversion, and you'll invest more pain in installing the oil tank , cooler, and engine mount than any engine mount idiosyncracies between a 2.7, or 3.x.

The engine swap is a significant project all by itself, mine was a lot of fun, especially watching heads turn as I roar by, and discovering all the other fellow fanatics out there, admiring their work, and hearing their war stories and advice.

My advice to you is if you haven't acquired your chassis yet, cultivate your patience (beer usually helps) and wait until you find a rust free example; they really do exist, especially on your side of the country. Grinding rust has little therapeutic value; invest your time in wrench work, that's where the fun (and bragging rights) lies.

If you already have a teener with some rust, it all depends on how much time and patience you have. If there's a lot, consider purchasing a welder and a rotisserie.

I personally went with a stock 3.2, since it was the first computerized engine and has most of the historic idiosyncracies eliminated. A plus there are no carbs to fiddle with (unless, of course, you like that sort of puttering), and timing the engine is a thing of the past, which is a good thing considering the location of the distributor when ensconced in a teener. The only thing I had to modify on the 3.2 was to lose the stock airbox and go with one of those cone filters which looks way cool anyway.

My local master mechanic counseled me at the start of the project to buy the results of someone else's investment, chances are you can buy a teener for a fraction of the PO has put into it. Unfortunately, I was not that shrewd, and I had a garage full of tools to appease anyway.

Good luck!

[David McLaughlin]

Kurt,
First, you need to get the models right. I meant to correct you on the 911 board, Caffee built a 914/6 GT car, not a 916. The 916 is most famous for its welded on metal roof. Also the front and rear bumpers/valances are quite different. Sorry to nit-pick.

Next, IMHO, the 3.0SC is the way to go. I'm planing on replacing my 2.0L six with a 3.0 while maintaining my stock webbers and H.Es to give a little more HP on the lower end. I would really consider buying an incomplete cenversion and saving your money for the motor and go fast stuff. I bought my /6 for well below what the parts alone would have cost me. Being in the North East, my car has a little more rust than I would have liked, but that'll be corrected soon.

Mike Z (on the 914 board, the 911 board and on rennlist) has been known to locate nice cars that you could use as a conversion. I believe Brad at ALL914.com also locates or locates to build cars. Contact those guys for some pointers too.

Good luck,

[J P Stein]

Rust evaluation isn't hard (for me).
The worst spot is (usually) down in the hell hole at the juncture of the front firewall (engine compartment) and longitudinal, pass side. This is where rainwater takes the battery acid. If the car has FI, ya can't see down in there, ya gotta feel for it....watch them sharp edges. If there is a hole into the long, I'd pass on this car. I passed on about 25 of em' before I found one "not holed". It rains a lot up here in the NW.....behind the sound pad is a nasty spot, also...at the bottom.

Acid in the long is a car killer and extroidinary efforts must be made here to save one. A simple patch don't get it.

If it passes this test, then go to the rear trunk.....trunk floor to rear bulkhead.

Next pass compartment floor boards, then cowling, below the windshield.
Still good? Then jack posts, front trunk, seal channel in front trunk.

If it passes all this, it's prolly good.

If I understand correctly, you have a 75?........prohibitive smog troubles, me thinks. Backdating is against the law.........

BTW.......2.7Ls rule !!!!!!while they last.

[Kurt B]

Thanks for the inspiration guys. I believe I will take a chill pill and wait for the most rust free chassis I can find.

And then I'll tackle most of the bodywork, then look for the engine conversion, then take it all off to have it painted BUT knowing it'll all go back in.

On the 916 914/GT. I'd really like to get this to look like a 916. I haven't investigated the dash of 916s yet or other details, but that is my goal. A 914/6 GT is a race car. This car will be a fast town car, so I want it to look like a production model car as the 916 was intended to be. Caffee's car is the inspiration for the whole project. Ideally, I want to be able to lay waste to most things I come to at stop lights. Alas, my Carrera, while quite fast, cannot lay waste to everything it comes across!
Of course, it will have good suspension et al, so that I can take it to the track too.

[J P Stein]

While 914/6s are not drag racers, performance comes with the territory. 10:1 pounds to hp is bout right, me thinks. That'll get you thru most street encounters.....not that I do that sort of thing
The stock 4s short first gear becomes a weapon when you have a 7k rpm motor behind ya. It's also the tran's weak point, so use it sparingly. Fast shifting should be attemped only after the trans is warm. I've never attempted a "power shift" in the car ( a residual skill from my drag racing days, many moons ago)......don't plan to, either.

[Joe Bob]

If you need help...I'm just up the road. Advise is free, I've done two of them....

[Kurt B]

Thanks mikez. My 3.2 has a lot of valve chatter. It runs pretty strong, but will need a rebuild.
Seems to me, it's best to get another 3.2 engine anyway, rebuild one and drive one.
This means, one'll go into the 911 and the other into the 914. DME will be easier to deal with since the engine's going to be backwards anyway.
I also feel alot more comfortable with the 3.2 than anything else with respect to reliability vs HP.

A 3.2 will or will not bolt onto a 901 tranny?

[jabb]

Kurt:

The Tranny will bolt to the 3.2.... It is the flywheel that
needs to be modified.... Just send KEP a 914 flywheel and they will modify it for the 3.2 setup. You have to cut some small holes in the housing of the transmission so the Fylwheel sensors can be mounted..... not a big deal and very easily done.

[SummerSledSix]

Joe, did you mean send KEP a *911* flywheel for modification? The 911 (at least the solitary '84 3.2 I'm familiar with) uses a 9 bolt main, where the 914 uses a 5 bolt main. That would be some modification!

I went an alternative route, namely an adapter kit from Patrick Motorsports which included an adapter ring for the 3.2 flywheel (picks up the starter), and a new clutch / pressure plate. Don't remember if the adapted clutch is beefier than the 914 OEM, but the arrangement works well.

The KEP approach might yield a lighter assembly (giving quicker throttle response) than the adapter ring approach, depending on what their mod actually is.

[Kurt B]

I'm just trying to figure out how things like fanbelt change and turning the crank for valve adjusts are going to work with the engine in backwards.
What is now not particularly fun on a 911 will suddenly be a complete b!tch.
How am I going to see the timing marks on the pully when I do my valves??
Holy sheep *****.

"Hey man, I see you're dropping your engine, what for?"
"Gotta change the airfilter."

[jabb]

John:

My flywheel is a 914 flywheel that was modified by KEP....
I am running a 3.0..... The 914 flywheel has all the holes welded then the new bolt pattern is redrilled.... you could never tell.

I also used the 228mm clutch and Pressure plate that is matched up to this flywheel from KEP.

I am not 100% sure on the difference between the 3.0 and the 3.2 flywheel..... if there is one.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

See the earlier thread on Sound Absorption for a discussion on the merits of holes in the firewall, and for the suggestion of using the flywheel.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?threadid=64898

--DD

[SummerSledSix]

OK, Kurt, don't be wimping out on us now! Yer gonna become even more of a gearhead than you may be right now when you do this engine swap thing, especially if you follow the "Caffee" blueprint and do the suspension too. So how often do you plan on replacing the fan belt anyway?

Check out the PP articles on 914 / 911 valve adjustment, I seem to remember a technique where you put the car in gear, and use one of the rear wheels to turn the crank. Just make sure you highlight those pulley marks real good before you put the six in the car. Also, when you're doing the swap, think about moving the batt to the front trunk. Better balance, more room in the engine bay for valve adj. access...

Joe, my hat's off to KEP (that's Kelly Eng., right?); that sounds like a lot of work for them, but should definitely result in a lighter flywheel!

And by the way Kurt, it's the 911 that has the engine in backwards !

[jabb]

Kurt:

I use the Fllywheel for setting the timing in the top of the xmission there is notch. Just mark the flywheel before you install it.

To adjust the valves put 3 red marks on the crank shaft pulley and with the help of a mirror you can adjust the valves....

Headers vs Heat exchangers makes access a bit easier.....

It's not that bad and once you are done you turn the key and go for that first ride you will not be able to get the smile off your face.....

Its a hell of a ride................... Can be a challenge at times to get
to the end goal but its worth it.............

[Kurt B]

I am definitely not wimping out on this. Anytime I feel like wimping out, i just look at Caffee's car and think about how fast that thing probably is.

And there is a lot of work still left to do...primarily acquiring the chassis and engine over the next several months.

I want to do the whole project myself (aside from calling those of you who will let me and asking for advice, or talking here!) and chalk it up as a major victory when it's done. Since I can take as long as I need to, I think this can be done. I'm just getting prepped to go!

(yup, i'll mark the hell out of the everything that spins in time. so i can see those marks.)

[Joe Bob]

When I built "the rocket"....I had KEP build a flywheel from scratch....ended up being about the same price AND I had them cut in the 228mm kevlar clutch disc .....

As many on this board will attest to, that puppy used to lay some BAD BOY burnouts....I did eventually blow the trans but it was a used POS to begin with, that I had added an LSD to.

I was just waiting to blow it up and slam in another one I had around....I just pulled the LSD and put it in the new/used trans that was laying in the garage... in and out in three hours.....after the LSD transplant of course....

[Kevin Powers]

kurt, the boys at pelican are GIVING away a roller in redondo beach.might be that"as little rust body' you are looking for.

[Kurt B]

Nice ride MikeZ! That's pretty much my goal, minus the racing part of it. I cool looking 916 style ...you know, the kind where ricers kinda check out the old car; and it smokes em

What is it about this roller? what year? who's got it and what are they doing to do with it?