I Need Your HELP

[Keith V]

Hello All. It's been awhile since I have posted here - you have been very helpful to me in the past. Here's my story:
I had not diven my car in about two months, so I decided to take it for a drive last week. Upon turning the key, I found the battery to be dead. I put the battery charger on it for about half an hour in the "Charge" mode, and then switched it to the "Engine Start" mode and got in and turned the key. I used this same procedure last year with good results. This time, however, when I turned the key, besides hearing the fuel pump buzz, there was a separate loud buzz, and the starter did not run. After turning the key twice and hearing this, I thought I should stop and just let the battery charge in the normal mode. A few minutes later, while I was working around the car, I accidentally bumped the charger cable to the negative post off, and it contacted the positive post. There was a spark, and the charger shut itself off. I reconnected the cable and the battery charged for awhile longer. I then disconnected the charger and the car started. I let the car idle for ten minutes, and turned it off. An hour later I started it again and took the car out on the road. I thought I could feel a slight hesitation at one point while cruising at about 50 MPH, but then it went away. A mile down the road, I came to a stop light, and the engine died. It took a little cranking, but the engine finally started. About two miles later I came to another stoplight and the engine died again. This time it would not start. While trying to start it, I could tell the battery was wearing down. I also noticed white fumes from the tailpipe. Fortunately, I was up a slight hill, and put the car in neutral to glide backwards off the road into a driveway. I let the car set for about 45 minutes and was able to get it started, and home (with no stops). I called Pelican and spoke to Steve about this. He was VERY helpfull. He suggested it could be a bad battery, poor ground connections. or the electronic ignition system (Pertronics?) I put in might have gone bad. Steve Thought the white fumes were unburned fuel. I took the battery in to have it checked (It was 6 years old). The battery was bad. I purchased a new one. After installing it in the car, I drove the car around my niegborhood, came to a number of stops, and the car worked perfectly (As it always did). But when I got home, I decided to let it idle in the driveway so the engine would get hot. I came back to it after a few minutes, and the engine was dead. I tried to start it, and the starter turned over, but it would'nt start. Again, I let it cool down, and after an hour the car started. The fuel pump is not in the engine compartment, so I know that's not getting too hot. THAT'S MY STORY. Thanks for reading all of it. Can any of you tell me what the problem could be? Oh yes - it's a 1973 1.7L.

[rich]

Hi Kieth, Welcome. Sometimes the simplest things are the ones most overlooked. Clean and check all the electrical connections. check the ones on the relay board. I've heard the relay boards can crack and cause intermitent problems. Others may have better suggestions.

[3D914]

Keith,

I might tend to agree with Rich, as the heat indicates something is amiss in the wiring. If it were simply the charging system, the new battery would have kept the car running for some time. It could still be some other element of the charging system, like the capacitors in the Alternator, or the votage regulator, but these should be easy to check.

It might be worthwhile to consider checking a few of the gauges as well - noticing whether they are lit contunously or not. The PO of my 74 had the clock, and lights on several gauges, hooked up so that they were a constant drain on the battery. Once I correctly wired everything, I didn't have to worry about things being off when I turn off the key.

Good luck,

[Keith V]

Hello Rich and 3D914,
Thank you for your replies. I will check the electrical connections as you suggest. I have already checked the ground connections (And addd an extra ground cable) as Steve from Pelican Parts suggested. My main concerns are that the negative clip from the battery charger came in contact with the positive clip/terminal on the battery, and I heard a loud buzzing noise when I tried to start the car in the "Engine start" mode on the battery charger. Since the car worked PERFECTLY before these two instances, I'm thinking these may have caused the problem. Can either of you or anyone else tell me what damage may have occurred when the negative charger clip touched the positive clip/post, or what that buzzing noise was?
Regards.

[JmuRiz]

Yep, sounds like an electrical issue to me. Actually it sounds a lot like when I had a bad fuel pump but with the unburnt gas smoke that's not the case here. I have electrical drain issues on my car as well. I just said f-it and got a slow charger and charge her up when I'm not driving.

I wish there was a way to get all new wiring on these cars, like the 'ol American MuscleCars have in their parts catalogs. Heck, I'd pay a bit more for a good bumper to bumper wiring setup for my 914.

The battery touching and sparking etc probably didn't do much if any damage (just my amature opinion, maybe an expert can tell you better). Usually a relay or fuse would blow if it was a serious power surge. Good luck, clean up the grounds and give it a whirl.

Nathan

BTW - How many grounds are there, besides the one on the battery and tranny? Thanks

[karlp]

I wouldn't worry too much about the loud buzzing noise on trying to start. When my alt. was dying and I was living charge to charge, it would do that if the charge was just dead enough. I took it to be the voltage being too low to firmly throw the solenoid. When the solenoid throws and sends juice to the starter windings, it further drops the voltage, causing the solenoid to fall back, voltage back up, solenoid tries again.....BUZZZZZ
As far as touching the negative clamp from your charger to the positive side of your battery, and I presume the positive clamp from your charger, the only thing you were likely to hurt was your charger. It shut down to protect itself.
I think your car is suffering from "Idon'tgetdrivenenough" I would, with prudence, continue to drive it short distances, let it idle in the driveway under supervision, and do some terminal, cap, and rotor cleaning. I think you'll find it will sort itself out.
I've always had the opinion that the best way to keep these and other old cars running well is to run them often.

Karl

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I wish there was a way to get all new wiring on these cars, like the 'ol American MuscleCars have in their parts catalogs. Heck, I'd pay a bit more for a good bumper to bumper wiring setup for my 914.

How much? I think I recall the dealer getting something north of $2K for them... Would you be willing to pay that much? More??

For brand-new wiring, figure a good bit more...

--DD

[bowlsby]

Most of the cars wiring should be fine and not need replacement, unless its been damaged by PO hacking, heat, vibration or liquid contamination. The engine bay harnesses can be cooked, but all else is usually serviceable or easy to repair.

Here is a current ad for an NOS harness if you really need one:

Karl Ellzey
I can be Emailed at:
kellzey@iepg.com

Orlando, FL USA
Monday, August 26, 2002 at 16:56:29 (PDT)


NOS main body wiring harness for 1974 914.

$500 plus S/H from Orlando, FL

e-mail pics available upon request.

[Racer Chris]

What you probably have is two or three simultaneous problems. I have had to solve two recent diagnosis nightmares which each involved three separate issues that were hard to isolate and track down. Strangely, both cars had a throttle cable that was twisted on the clutch cable. Both cars also needed a new MPS.
In your case I would suggest checking the voltage regulator and its connection to the relay board, and the trigger points in the bottom of the distributor, and the MPS.
One of the problems I diagnosed included the trigger points. They would intermittently cause the engine to die and not restart for 15 minutes or so. When replaced, the car was fine again.
I doubt that anything is wrong with the Pertronix. If it is bad the car won't run.

[Keith V]

Hello Racer Chris - forgive my ignorance - what is the MPS? Regards.

[anthony]

MPS = manifold pressure sensor

[Bruce Allert]

Hey Keith, thanks for posting your question. My car is the same (73 1.7) and does the same thing. It gets hot & if I turn it off it won't start... then starts a little while later. I don't have any buzzing but sometimes a gurgle that sounds like someone is blowing air through a straw into the gas tank! Haven't figured that one out yet! Ain't these lil' cars fun though??? They keep ya up at night jes' think'n & think'n.............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
bruce

[Ron Meier]

What does the exhaust smell like when it won't start? Yeh! Ya gotta stick your nose near the exhaust pipe.

My '74 had a stuck injector that was trying to fill a cylinder with liquid gas. I found all the leaks in my exhaust by where the liquid was leaking. The smoke was white. When it finally kicked, the exhaust looked like a spray can. No - no fire but I had the extingusher ready.

[mike95125]

Lets see...my.02 is that the loud buzzing noise is possibly the parking brake relay not getting anough juice from a non fully charged battery thus causing it to oscillate faster (had this problem as well, and it freeked me out too). As for the two leads of the charger contacting...electrically speaking this should be of no consequence to your engine electrical system. Your charger also had an auto cut off as well so no blood no foul. When the two leads contacted each other they isolated the engine out of the whole circuit as the electricity will only wish to travel the shortest distance between the two leads, i.e. a direct path constructed by them conecting directly together. Just piece of mind I hope on the charger question. For the loud buzz, try it without the parking brake on and see if it goes away. Good luck!
Mike

Oh ya! I got a full 73 1.7 FI if you guys need parts. It worked fine till one of the valves in #3 decided to detroy the piston by breaking off

[Bruce Allert]

Hey Mike, how much you want for just the 4 injectors. My 1.7 has 2.0 injectors and I'd like to have the correct ones just in case that is my problem with the way it's running.
Let me know if you want to sell them alone.
bruce

[mike95125]

Bruce,
I'll take what ever the going rate is for them. Im not exactly sure. Personal mail me and we will handle the particulars
Mike

[Keith V]

Thanks to all of you that replied to my call for help. I removed the Compufire electronic ignition system out of the distributor, and found the spinning disc that fits under the rotor, had worn through the insulation on the wires from the sensor to the ignition coil. I sent the unit back to Compufire, and even though it was about six years old, they sent me a new $80.00 complete system free. The unit they sent me now includes a small washer that fits on the distributor shaft before the disc. This raises the disc a fraction of an inch, to give more clearance for the wires underneath. As the song goes "On the road again".