924/924/948 Newbie - some basic questions

[umfan866]

Hi all,

I had a red 1987 911 Targa for 10 years. I sold it, and regret doing so -- particularly because my teenage sons are now (finally) interested in cars instead of just video games. Also, we lived for 18 years in California and Hawaii, but we now live in Canada near Toronto. We currrently have boring cars: a 2016 Honda CRV and 2016 Civic LX -both automatic. My sons are mostly interested cars like a 2015 WRX, Sti - and I will be driving some examples shortly. Prices of 911s are in the stratosphere, prices of used Caymens are still high, but... there are all sorts of 924s and 944s for sale locally - around 5-7k in US dollars! For some reason most 924s are from 78-79, and 90% of the 944s are from 1983. Many are beat to **** but some examples look nice. I am finding that 944s from 1986 or later (having the new dash?, and possibly an LSD?) are either rare, in automatic only, or higher priced). Trying to find any 944 S, 944 S2, 944 Turbo, or 968 that are drivers not garage queens appears to be a REAL challenge.

As a kid I remember looking at a 924, and it was in rough shape and felt more like a VW. A long-time friend bought an 87 944 Turbo brand new, and loved it - he says it was as good as my 80's 911 in terms of power and handling. I convinced my boys to look into these, and all of us are intersted in buying one now, after watching Casey Putsch youtube videos on his white and red 944s.

I am trying to get up to speed as fast as I can - so please point me to your favorite FAQs, buying guides - here on Pelican or otherwise. I used to have a stack of Excellence magazines, but had to sell them in a move- I loved their buying guides. I used to have the "Porsche Projects for your old 911" book by Wayne here- is there a similar book for 944s? We did read about the camshaft upgrade and some sort of brackets you can put add to the sway bar to connect it to the main chassis.

I have some particular questions also that my sons want to know the answer to:
1) Is there any chip you can put into the ECU of a stock 944 to bump up the 143 hp?
2) When did the stock 944 horsepower go up 163?
3) How much better handling is a car with Koni coilovers in it? (one car in Quebec was basically turned into a street legal track car- and has these).
4) would it be better to find a 924 in superb condition than a 944 in OK condition?

Also - up until now - the next Porsche I had in mind was going to be an early Cayman S, in say 5 years. If the goal is to have great road feel and get on the track once in a while (for my boys), would a 944 with strut bar / mom steerring wheel / chip do it .. or wait until Caymen prices come down? I could get a non-S Cayman for 15k locally.. hmm. I once drove a 1985 911 and a Boxter S side-by-side, and for me the 911 felt so much more alive, in-touch-with-the-road, exhilerating compared the Boxster, which drove more "Lexus"-like / refined. If an 80s 944 truly feels comparable (at least in handling, if not power) to an 80s 911, and a Caymen S drives very refined / can't feel the road.. I'd much rather have my boys be driving the 944....

Thanks in advance for your advice/thoughts.

[944 Ecology]

Most of your questions are answered here:

Porsche 924/944/968 Frequently Asked Questions

[FrenchToast]

Power change was with higher compression pistons in MY88. You can always upgrade it but it really depends on what you want to do with the car.

If you plan on making a track car, don't bother with a 944. Suspension components are archaic, everything's old. Same comment for a street car, but a higher performance on track will age out components far quicker.

You can replace the entire suspension with all new components but it's still a 50 year old design.

Newer cars almost always feel more neutered. In the quest for greater performance, lively handling is a drawback. There is also legislation regarding stability and traction control systems. Porsche (along with certain other manufacturers) go to great lengths to re-instill as much 'character' as possible while still meeting all their goals.

Cayman is better in just about every way. But it isn't without it's drawbacks either; for track performance I think Porsche Motorsport suggests using RSR arms and bolts but I don't remember. Maybe that's just for GT3s.

[jjeffries]

People still have fun in 50, 60, 70 year old designed or manufactured cars. The way I’d phrase it would be about remaining clear-eyed in terms of the pro’s and con’s of any given car.

From that angle: these cars are good for street/ track due to their weight balance. Within the context of today’s standards, they on the slower end ... “momentum” cars, especially on the track. But the sensation of speed is still pretty good. They can be expensive to bring up to basic snuff, more so to modify. This is especially true of 951’s. The engines are limited in terms of extracting more power. They are attractive cars. Parts support is good. Values have gone up, a mixed blessing.

If someone offered me a Cayman in trade for my 924S, I’d likely take it. In a heartbeat. But I wouldn’t trade my SC for just about anything.

I believe the current air-cooled 911 price insanity is a bubble that’ll pop. Who knows though.

I hope that helps.

John

[umfan866]

Thanks guys,

Have been able to get up-to-speed quickly. I now know about many of the important differences between the 924 and 944, and the various models. Going to see a 1983 944 in Champagne tonight with my boys. I located an 89 944 with the 2.7 motor about 5 hours away that is priced about the same as the other 83's and is said to be in great mechanical condition with some cosmetic issues and is a rare color looks bluish. There is a nice 32 also about 5 hours away for about double the prices of the others, and a turbo about 3.5 times the prices of the others. For better or worse I like Guards Red, but I know with older cars the condition of the car is KING. There's even a few 924s that are as low as half the price of the 83 944s, but I think I'll only go look at them if my boys like the basic style/shape/feel of a 944. I had my eye on a grey 2008 non-S Caymen for a little more than the price of the S2 - but it disappeared off autotrader in a day of the add going up.and our budget right now is not that high. Will keep you posted!

FrenchToast - thanks for explaning that the "visceral" feel that in older Porsche's that we all hate to see go in every generation has a lot to do with safety regulations and also the gradual change from "analog" to digital and drive-by-wire, all of which further removes the driver from the actual "feel" of the road etc. I was watching some youtube videos about this, I guess even more things are coming - manual transmissions will eventually go away, exhausts are going to get more muted due as more polutants get trapped etc. This helped explain WHY this is happening. Up until now I had thought this was all because sports car companies were giving in to people who want their sportscars to be more "lexus"-like (over and above the contingent of people who want to feel the road so much that their tooth fillings get pried loose when they drive - like me).


Oh and I found this helpful also, thanks:
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/944_buyers_guide/944_buyers_guide.htm

[Ernie944]

[QUOTE=umfan866;11307660]Thanks guys,

........ I located an 89 944 with the 2.7 motor about 5 hours away that is priced about the same ...............First welcome to the 924-944-968 forum.Was a owner of both an early 944 & 968 for many many years...See my Garage....Forget a cheap 968 it doesn't exist up here in Canada & if so it's probably money down the drain to get it back on the road.Early 944 are nice but also have draws back as you will find out,Your best bet will be the 2.7 if in decent shape & service has been done on it ,,expl,,,,belts -water pump ect ect.the 2.7 is a strong motor & will last a long time if taken care off.Good luck in your search.

[umfan866]

Hey Ernie944,

It sure is fun to get to know the Porsche world from the Canadian side. So I just got back from driving my first 944. It was an 83 with 99,000 km. The owner bought it at 95,000 km, and put a lot of work into it. His bought it because his dad had a 924 turbo when he was a kid, and this owner was extremely nice and seems to have done a lot of the upkeep himself. He figures the odomoter has rolled over once so it is probably at 199,000 km - I guess the odomotor does not enough digits to tell, crap. It was Champagne, with a repaint about 10 years ago, and it was really clean with a clear plastic bra. The interior was nice, except he had black recaros and doesn't have the original seats. Dash is cracked but with a cover. Heater and AC worked, pop up headlights work, everything operational. Very, very clean otherwise. Some prior owner had put that big red "944" thing in the middle between the rear lights and he removed it, but he had to put black vinyl to cover up the holes, and there were little pin-holes on the rear bumper where the previous owner had put the license plate originally. He didn't have the original steering wheel, had a nice momo instead. I did not care for the 964 "Cup" wheels but I did like that he had really wide tires (I think he said 205s) and brand new rubber. It had a strut bar and the upgraded cam piece.

I was able to drive it and I REALLY LIKED IT! It totally felt like my boys and I were back in my 87 911 - the way it drove, felt, shifted, smelt, EVERYTHING! It even seemed even a big lighter or more "tossable" than the 911, kind of like i could take a hairpin curve even better! It kind of felt like the 911s slightly younger brother, very similar, just not quite as strong. I can't believe that all my life I believed all that stuff about how "it's not a real Porsche unless the engine is in the rear"! To be honest, when you are inside the car, I really can't tell that much - the view is the same! The only thing I wished for was a LITTLE bit more power, just a LITTLE - like could I put a chip in this thing? My 1986 BMW 325e came to life with a chip (but it was also serious de-tuned for from factory). If not, I think I'll want to drive the 5 hours to experience the 1989 2.7 -- that could be just the right amount - DA BOMB! My son wondered if we could lighten it be taking out the rear seats- but they look pretty integrated.

The biggest plus was that both my boys changed their mind - they both liked it - they had low expectations going in. Except.. tommorow we are going to drive a 260 hp WRX .. I guess we will see. I said maybe we will have to get BOTH - a WRX for winter, and a 944 for summer.. they said SURE - as long as you can convince mom! Hahaha! Hmmm. My wife has a 2015 CRV. I would love to get her into a V6 manual Cayenne - I drove one once and loved it ! Except any examples of those locally have 200k miles... darn!

[Ernie944]

[QUOTE=umfan866;11308184] . If not, I think I'll want to drive the 5 hours to experience the 1989 2.7. My son wondered if we could lighten it be taking out the rear seats- but they look pretty integrated............Talking with lot's of experience here with the 944 variants,as with other cars the newer the better & Porsches are no exception ,really thing you should go take a look at the 2.7 the 5 hrs drive migth worth it & pretty sure you will find quiet a difference in beyween the two ,will also like if you could send us the link & pics of both cars your looking at.If the car is nice & running well ask the owner if he is willing to do a PPI on it.

[Ernie944]

[QUOTE=umfan866;11308184]Hey Ernie944,- DA BOMB! My son wondered if we could lighten it be taking out the rear seats- but they look pretty integrated...................The answer to your son ? is yes. see pic.

[Ernie944]

Is it the 83 yours looking at ...if so, personnaly I wouln't pay the kind of money he is asking for it . .

....Just trying to help.

[umfan866]

Ernie944,

One question - now that I am in Canada me and my sons seem to get "concerned" regarding cars have 200+ km on them. Except in the miles, that's only 120k miles! In the US I would get hung up at 200+ miles. Funny! I suppose these cars can easily handle 321k (which is 200k miles)!!

Yes that's the car! He said he's asking 9,500 CDN / 7,600 USD and he's flexible. I don't like the champagne color (apparently the repaint is slightly off in color also), the cracks in the dash (which I did not see they are covered), the issues with the rear licence plate mentioned above, and the mismatched recaros (which are too big, hard to get into), as well as the cup wheels (but they are nice and wide with new rubber). Also it most like 199 km not 99 km. But it was very clean and I would say showed better in person than these photos indicate. What would you pay?

Here is the 1989 in Ottawa - I'd have to drive 5 hours to see it. It is owned by a 75 year old man who is selling his toys (but he's keeping his 911). He is asking 11,500 CAD / $9,200 USD:

https://www.autotrader.ca/a/porsche/944/carleton%20place/ontario/19_11847901_/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&orup=3_5_5&pc=N2T%202W7&sprx=500

And I have also interacted with this guy. He says 1-owner but its more like his friend owned it, then his friends son owned it, then he did. It has nice fuchs, and he is asking $8500 CAD / $6,800 USD

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/288304709604544/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A8747a120-3a1b-41ca-bc55-41320ae8a3c6

Googling around I see a 968 convertible for about 14k USD, an S2 for 15k USD.. but for us this would be a 3rd car and that could be a little too much...

[944 Ecology]

The asking price on 944s (and Porsches in general) fluctuates with the seasons: high in the spring (because everybody wants a sports car for the summer, eh, right?) and lower in September/October/November (Where the heck am I going to park this? And I cannot afford snow tires.)

Look for these cars after summer and the price will drop at least 20 percent.

Also, the 83 944 does not have fuchs (forged) wheels, but rather "cookie cutter" ATS (cast) wheels. Big difference in value and weight and strength.

[Ernie944]

Originally Posted by 944 Ecology

The asking price on 944s (and Porsches in general) fluctuates with the seasons: high in the spring (because everybody wants a sports car for the summer, eh, right?) and lower in September/October/November (Where the heck am I going to park this? And I cannot afford snow tires.)

Look for these cars after summer and the price will drop at least 20 percent.

Also, the 83 944 does not have fuchs (forged) wheels, but rather "cookie cutter" ATS (cast) wheels. Big difference in value and weight and strength.

Get what your saying George ...But they want a car for this summer ,not one you buy in late fall & have to store for the winter, since up here there is no way you'll drive a 944 in the winter time & beside price up here don't fluctuates that much from fall to spring.

[944 Ecology]

Understood... I made my best deals when the seller was more motivated than I was.

[Ernie944]

[QUOTE=umfan866;11308743]Ernie944,

unfan866 ,forget the 968 completly a good shape 968 up here will go for 25,ooo$ CND to over 30,ooo$ CND so pretty stiff price & they are going up monthly.I also did check on the 2.7 before you send the link,seem to be a very nice car for the money aske.To answer your son ??? there is not much you can do to that 83 to gain any HP& every body here will agree I,m pretty sure,you can tweak the suspension a little that will give you a decent ride around corners with the rigth kind of shocks -wheel -rims & tires-& most important ...brand new rubber bushings all around but if you over do it it will be what I call ...A PIG...on the street .Check my Garage under... OLD FAITHFULL...and you'll have an idea how i turn my ex 83 -944 into a real nice road machine that could shame many more power full cars on the road.If you decide to buy the 83 I won't mine giving you many tips to turn it in a decent car.There is to much I did to the 83 to start listing it here,those mods were done over a periode of 20 years that I owne the car, some were trials & errors,I work very hard to get it righ & still very proud of it . BTW my ex 83 I,m talking about is store in a garage & is for sale.