Replaced starter; same problem

[schnork]

'86 944:

My starter spins but does not engage the flywheel.


Here is how the problem arose: Approximately five minutes after starting the car normally, and a couple of mile down the road, I was in the middle of making a left turn at approx. 15 mph when the engine quit. There were no sounds/signs of a mechanical failure, no warning lights, nothing. It just quit in midflight, as if a critical electrical circuit failed.

When I tried the starter, the motor turned but did not engage the flywheel. Suspecting that I had two problems -- whatever caused the engine to die AND a malfunctioning starter, I had a rebuilt starter airfreighted to me.

When the Bosch-rebuilt starter showed the same symptom -- failure to engage -- it makes me wonder if this problem might actually be a symptom of the problem that caused the engine to quit; that perhaps both starters I have in my possession might actually be ok.

I've inspected the ring gear on the flywheel and it doesn't even have much wear, let alone damaged teeth.

I also replaced the ground (neg.) cables -- engine to battery and frame to battery -- but to no avail.

So I'm stuck . . . any ideas, please?

Larry

[pearldrum]

You should take the starter to a local shop or autoparts store so that they can test it. Most places do it for free. That way you know if the starter is working right...

[97XRAY]

If the two are related, it certainly makes a good argument for a bad cable or circuit connection. The solenoid receives a +12 (or 14 - I can't keep it straight - but it's a +) from the ignition switch. Could it be that some problem - upstream of the ignition switch - caused power through this cable to fail while plenty of current was running through the main positive battery cable to the starter?
I recommend asking IceShark... he helped me figure out a number of electrical troubles.
In the mean time, play it safe - the starter can pull hundreds of Amps - plenty to not only arc weld but burn you.
Keep us posted.

[TCMdocs944]

And, of course, lets not forget the obvious.....Bent valves

Here's a quick check..

Find the "window" hole at the cam sprocket cover, it is about the size of a dime to the right of the dist cap.
Mark the cam sprocket with paint, fingernail, whiteout etc.
crank engine
if the painted mark is in the same place your timing belt has stripped teeth at the crank...
This is the same symptom that stopped me about a month and a half ago. Going on knowledge from other models I assumed the starter.

Hope this isn't the case, maybe a bad ground or solenoid. Good Luck.

[TCMdocs944]

Ooops, said solenoid meant coil

[Dez]

yeah, the starter could be turning but your belt is either stripped or broken giving the impression that the engine isn't turning. have a look an the crank pulley while someone turns the key.

[SoCal Driver]

Sounds like a sewing machine?

Broken timing belt.

Bent valves.

No compresion.

$500 to $1,500.

Pay the MAN.

[Dez]

I was led to believe that the 2.0l engine is non interference? or are the 944's 2.5's only and above?

[TCMdocs944]

Oooooh, not really sure about the 2.0. We don't see alot of late 924's over here. Man, where is AFjuvat when you need him!
Still, interference or otherwise a belt check is in order. If non interf. then no harm no foul.

Good luck.

[schnork]

Thanks for your many replies and comments.

My dumb -- I finally had the wife turn the key while I looked at the crankshaft pully. Sure enough, it moved. The problem is definitely a broken camshaft belt.

As I rotated the engine by hand to find top dead center on cylinder one -- by lining up the flywheel mark with the mark on the clutch housing -- I ended up turning it more than one revolution. The engine feels -- to the wrench -- like it still has compression; I might have lucked out with respect to bent valves.

After replacing the camshaft & balance shaft belts (my father-in-law actually has the Porsche belt tensioning tool; now if he can just find it . . .), I will first turn the engine again by hand to check for interference in the valve train; and start it if it feels o.k.

[SoCal Driver]

An 86 944 with a broken timing belt has bent valves.

Please add you year and model to your signiture line in your personal profile section. This helps the rest of us when you ask questions.

If you do the work your self on the cheap you can replace the valves and just lap them in. No valve guides. No grinding. Costs about $500 total with all of the necessary seals and misc. parts.

[TCMdocs944]

I am in the middle of the bent valve job.

Parts so far - about $400
- this includes MANY things I found while in there (83)

National Cylinder Head in Tampa fl did awsome head work.
- $175 ..I supplied the parts


If ya need something let me know..I took lots of pics. For me, it has been a really good experience because of the age and neglect of the car. I will feel really good about it once it is back together. I think all of the little erratic performance will be taken care of.

I still hope no bent valves.

[schnork]

Thanks for your kind offer, TCMDocs944. I will be installing the new timing belts tomorrow, weather permitting (it's a ***** to do major repairs w/o a garage!).

[Baza]

Broken timing belts = new member

[Dez]

Best of luck with it. hope you get your money back on that spare starter motor. 8-)

[SoCal Driver]

Originally posted by schnork
Thanks for your kind offer, TCMDocs944. I will be installing the new timing belts tomorrow, weather permitting (it's a ***** to do major repairs w/o a garage!).

Still in denial.

Try starting the engine with just the timing belt on. Don't put it all back together.

When you find out the valves are bent there will be less to take off to remove the head.

While you are removing the head keep asking yourself why you are a twit and can't listen to 944 owners that have gone through the same thing. In some cases twice.

[TCMdocs944]

Ok shnork

Still not beleivin. One simple test

Remove the distributor cap and rotor. Turn the cam sprocket with a wrench(vise grips over cloth work well).
It should turn easily with no real resistance.
Significant resistance = bent valves

Look at the bright side - you have to remove the dist and rotor to do the head job anyway

[TCMdocs944]

Ps. as you may be able to tell this is a real sore subject for SoCal. Hehe.

Mark

[SoCal Driver]

Originally posted by TCMdocs944
Ps. as you may be able to tell this is a real sore subject for SoCal. Hehe.

Mark

Most newbies to the board are here because they have a problem with their car. Although I think some are here for the abuse.

To share our 944 pain -- to help is what we are here for.

When a newbie comes in and doesn't listen it kind of ticks me off.

If you don't want to listen to and employ our help then don't ask.

Yes we all have our opinions which are based upon many years of ownership (or just a few months in some cases). Still to not listen to and reanalyze your observations and incorporate the new data is just asking the junk man to come and tow away your dead 944.

I would rather see a 944 project on the road than as a parts car in a junk yard.

[carsontc]

Hugh..it's his first post

he doesn't know the odds (it is possible for a belt to break without bending valves...just as it is possible for me to win the PowerBall lottery)

all he knows right now is that you should try decaf ;-)