*stands up and applauds*
well said, cj.

Yeah, I think from now on I should just cut-and-paste that whenever a noob asks about getting more HP out of their 944 ;)

all good advice but you just confused the hell out of me
aren't cookie cutters the same thing as those fuchs the 911 guys rant and rave and spend gobs of money on? if not are the phone dials fuchs? what about d90's? cups?:confused:

Fuchs

http://www.porschapart.com/images/rims006.jpg

Cookie Cutters - notice they have a *similar* star shape to that of the Fuch's.... but they're indented.

http://www.diateam.no/porsche/cookiecutters_1.jpg

Phone Dial Rims.. pretty self explainatory..

http://www.kiddoh.com/cars/driverswheel.jpg

D90's

http://koti.mbnet.fi/ywa/jappe/autot/porsche/d90.jpg

ah thanks man

no problemo...
did it all through google image search....just typed in the names and there they were.... glad to help.

On the cone air issue, what about putting a 924 Turbo front panel for more airflow under the hood? I have to admit my main reasons for wanting to do this is to mak the car look less modern, styling thing. Previous owner put one in on my current 944.

My turn! Hahaha... I can never leave these threads alone...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/239581-turbo-na-944-a.html

Even better, details on Na to Turbo Conversion:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/231587-944-na-turbo-conversion.html

Hemm more power from a 924S, well lets assume you have the engine up to snuff. Once thats done, you re-examine your budget.

Now lets say instead of the Turbo Engine, you turbo your car. Hemmm...

Ok... been their done that. Its not complicated and its not simple, but in short, you run a similar system to the stock 944 Turbo.

So you have a few options, lets talk for a moment about boost (keeping in mind that I am a boost head).

Now Callaway, Windblown and BAE all built kits to boost the 924/944 platform.

My favorite is the Callaway, this system provided higher PSI at lower RPM and boost dropped off at higher RPM as stress increased on the engine. This does two things, first it contributes to long life, less stress etc, next it gives you more power in the lower RPM where you spend most of your driving. Sizing the turbo and especially the hot side of the turbo would be critical. Not to hard to do, as sizing goes. Duplicating the system, would not be hard. Not even with the boost issue, its accomplished by ensuring boost comes on as early as possible and at max boost, then you are simply dumping boost at higher Rpm via the Wastegate. So this means you would want the wastegate to see less boost at lower rpm and actual boost at higher rpm.

I can get into the details, but I duplicated that setup more than once on more than one car, none the least of which was my 944. Its amazing what it does to your HP curve, its almost linear…. You get more power at lower rpm, because you have more boost, even though your base HP is lower, then as base HP climbs boost drops… makes for power through out the rpm range.

Now for installing a turbo, you have three choices:
1. Custom header and passenger side install
2. Cross over pipe and drivers side install
3. Rear Mount, yea go luck up STS turbos, basically turbo gets mounted in the rear, and no his is not an original idea, far as I know I had built two cars with rear mount turbos, before he ever did, mine where built in 93 and 95 respectfully. His is a more recent design with modern turbochargers. Rear mount is not ideal. However it can be done, and yes I did test a prototype of my design on my 944.

Try to stick with 1 or 2 above, 3 is to radical for most people and lag can be a pain if the turbo and exhaust isn’t setup right and no, having a intake tube running from the turbo to the front of the car isn’t difficult to do, no the volume isn’t really and issue, unless you have built this setup or played with one, then don’t comment on a rear mount, you wouldn’t know what you are talking about and I don’t feel like arguing about it. It has been proven to work time and time again, just go look at STS.

Now sticking with 1 or 2 above, 1 requires a exhaust manifold be made, great if you can weld, all you need are some plumbing supplies and a flange that matches the exhaust port so you can bolt it up. Modified log style manifold, look it up on the net. Add the turbo flange for your turbo and an external wastegate if your turbo doesn’t have an internal setup. – if you build it yourself, it would cost no more than 150.00 to do.

Now option 2 – no turbo manifold required, just a good crossover pipe that can handle the heat. Cross over pipe off the header to the Drivers Side, you mount the turbo here, unless you have the 944 Turbo Drivers side mount, you will need to support the turbo off the block so that the cross over pipe is properly braced along with the turbo, you do not, I say again do not want the crossover pipe freestanding and supporting the turbo. As for what turbo, well you could go with a T3 or and IHI or even the KKK. I prefer something with internal wastegate and oil cooling only, no water cooling. Just complicates the install.

Now lets assume you can get the turbo mounted. Your biggest hurdle is oil delivery and return. Well there are two options, for options one and two above and only one for option three.
1. Tap oil pan for the return. Tap Oil filter/Oil Pressure sender for oil supply.
2. Dedicated Oil Supply. – requires you use a oil sump pump, oil reservoir, oil cooler and oil filter. – I favor this, you don’t have to tap the pan and it can be done for no more than 300.00 also doesn’t tax engine oil system.
3. For the rear mount – dedicated oil system, see STS for more details.

Ok so you would have turbo mounted and oil going to and from the turbo.
Now you need to route the discharge from the hot side of the turbo to the exhaust system,

A simple down pipe that runs to the stock exhaust pipe, comes off turbo and goes to pipe, unless turbo is rear mount, in which case you can just use the down pipe as your exhaust pipe since its located at the rear… and essential the turbo is your muffler.

Now you need the boosted air to get to the intake, well assuming no intercooler you route pipe from turbo cold side to intake. Keep it simple and avoid radical bends or kinks/restrictions.

Install a blow off valve in the intake pipe that comes from turbo to intake manifold.

Now if you want to use an intercooler, not required at lower boost levels (under 7 PSI). You could of course run one regardless, you run the pipe from the turbo to one side of the intercooler instead of the intake and you run the other side of the intercooler to the intake manifold. You install your blow-off valve in the Intercooler, on one of the end caps or in the intake piping.

Now your wastegate should be limited to no more than 5-6 PSI, you can get away with more boost at lower rpms, say 8 PSI up to about 4k, then have it dropping from 4k on to a safer 5-6 PSI. The Callaway kit ran even more boost than 8.

Now I would keep it simple. Go to a max of 7 PSI, ideally 5-6, which means your wastegate dumps at 5 or 6 PSI. Makes it simple, turbo spools, you have boost and more hp across the rpm range. Only hard part is picking a turbo. Not hard and most places will help based on engine size...

NOW lets talk fuel and timing issues.

Timing can be addressed by the DME in a limited fashion, its not setup for boost, so after a certain amount of boost you are running the risk of detonation. Retarding timing as boost increases is ideal, can you say MSD 6 BTM or something similar. Of course you could have custom chip done up… but that’s a different expense.

Fuel Delivery:
Some solutions:
1. The FMU, boost referenced fuel pressure increase for more flow at a given pulse
2. Variable Fuel Pressure Regulator similar to above…
3. Larger injectors for more flow at a give pulse
4. Extra Injector(s)
5. Water and Alcohol injection (at 3 PSI and below you can get away with a 50/50 mix with the alcohol working to not only cool charge but add extra fuel)

If you want to know about the FMU go look up Fuel Management Units, like Vortech on the web, especially the STANG guys.

Lets deal with my favorite number 4. Now this is supper simple. You tap into the fuel line you feed a extra injector or injectors. 2 is over kill unless they are small. 1 extra injector is more than enough. Now unless you are going to buy the electronic controls, like a REBIC then you need low tech.

That’s simple, buy, steal, borrow a Cold Start Injector from any car so equipped. Can you say junkyard or Ebay? Now T into fuel line, run line to injector, find location in intake pipe (not Intake), drill hole (for injector) tap pipe with screws you want a leak proof seal both at the injector and the screws. No Welding required. An Ideal location for this is around 6-8 inches before the Throttle body and after the AFM. Do not install the injector before the AFM, Turbo or Intercooler, it must be after all these and before the throttle body and certainly not in the intake manifold itself.

Now a cold star injector is simple, its on or off, no pulses and they flow specific flow rates at their given pressure rating (increase pressure, increase flow, drop pressure, drop flow and reduce the effectiveness of the spray). So you wire up a HOBBS switch and set it to 2-3 PSI (you will have to set it manually or buy a Switch preset to 2 PSI) I run mine at 3. Now what happens is as soon as the HOBBS switch reads 2 psi or more in the intake it turns on the injector… no complicated controls, just fuel flowing into the intake pipe. Wow imagine that low-tech. Now this does two things:
1. It adds the extra fuel and kills detonation before it can strike.
2. It reduces intake air temp, which reduces the chance of detonation.

That my friends is it in a nut shell.

Now this is was not intended as a set of instructions, it’s a set of ideas and general guidance, what you do or choose to do is your issue, not mine. I am telling you what I know to work for me, if you bugger it up, well that’s not my issue.

But considering the amount of times I have done this on all manner of cars, to include my personal 944. Well it works.

Scared of boosting an engine, worried about 5 PSI being to much…. Grasshopper one need only reduce the max boost to enjoy the fruits of your labors. IN OTHER WORDS, run just 3 PSI. THE STOCK DME can almost handle that as fuel and timing goes, in fact in my experience a little alcohol injection is all you need. That and something over higher octane fuel.

I would of course say that the higher the octane rating, the less chance of detonation. Raising the octane rating, means you raise the detonation threshold.

No don’t use those gimmicky octane additives, they only raise octane a matter of so many points, well those points are tenths. SO if it raises Octane 8 pts, 87 octane becomes 87.8 maybe if it raises it 10 pts you would end up with 88 octane or if you start with 93 you get 94. Wow, holy waste of time Batman… save your money.

Alright kids, that’s it bye for now… untill next time when I will tell you how you can do this all for under 1k... oh wait I did that in the other thread....

Oh their are other options I didnt cover, like Carb(s) and of course Superchargers, not just mine, I mean like roots.... can you say Eaton M62? From the mercedes. Or how about a SC14 --- used on a Toyota V6, keep it simple and go small... Positive displacement is a good thing. Boost is determined by pulley size and... its also cheap. You would want a small displacement roots for the simple setup and they are dirty cheap, the Eaton M90 is to big. You want it sized right and small pacakege like the Mercedes Unit. Do not use any GM unit, they have a funky rear section... and are to long.

Yes I have installed ROOTS units on my car, great performance... easy to do, but thats another story.

OH WANT MORE BOOST? HOW ABOUT KNOCK CONTROL...

ADJUST YOUR WASTEGATE.... of course the higher the boost the more you have to worry about the whole engine grenading....

Now you can run more boost if you eliminate detonation, say you want 8 PSI, ok now you need 93 octane for sure. You would want Water injection and the extra fuel injector.

You also want some serious retard on timing.

Worries about detonation? Well lets steal a SAAB unit and install the sensor and wastegate control... how does it work? If the knock sensor detects knock... it retards boost. Basically it opens the wastegate sooner and lowers boost. Effective.

Want to setup something like the Callaway... high boost at lower RPM, aside from getting the right turbo... wastegate control is you primary concern and how they did what they did.... well if you cant figure it out, im not telling, its a secret and you will need your Secret Squirrel Decoder ring for that..... hahahaha

How many times does it need to be said? AIRFLOW THROUGH THE FILTER IS NOT A PROBLEM. The main point of resistance on the 944 system is the AFM, not the air filter. If the AFM isn't changed, no more air is getting into the engine, period.

Now, a cone air filter with FRWilk's upcoming MAF conversion, however...........

Any conversion that removes the AFM, is a good one be that MAF, MAP etc... well you just removed one major restriction. The cone is not the issue and if you are worried about heat soak or any of that, but a heat shield around it and route cold air to it. Flow is not the issue, heat and restriction are the big problems. Restriction being the largest.

The cooler the air the denser.... we should all know that one, doesnt matter if its stock or not... get the coldest air you can into the engine, the way to do that is to route cold air to the filter, regardless of type. Now with any given filter choices being even... well assuming or accepting they are even, then worry less about the cone and more about where you are pulling the air from...

Still the arguement over which is cooler... well thats a different arguement, especially when you are talking, idle versus at speed, ambient temp, etc... all these things can effect your setup, not to mention water splashing up to hit your air filter element if its exposed and not positioned properly.

honestly i think you have the best reply to whenever anybody asks questions about getting more power out of the 8v.
No offense CJ but we're talking shock and awe here ;)

Hey, I admit it... I know much more about the 944 as a whole than extracting power from a powerplant

Yea CJ knows his stuff. There are certainly things about the 68, 44 and 24 that I am sketchy on.

Power yea that is what I am all about, well that, boost, efi, alternate fuel, electronics, and a few other things.... yep yep and I have a shinny Secret Squirrel Decoder ring.... bahahahahaha, well did till my son added it to the growing collection of the cool stuff that he borrows and doesnt give back.

What I was refeinrg to though ,was not airflow into the filter, but airflow under the hood, fresh air from the outside flowing through being what the cone air filter is picking up.

hey i've got an idea. could you, in theory, take 2 951 heads, turbos, sets of pistons and conrods, and a custom crank and put them on a 928 block? this is, of course, assuming you set up all the plumbing properly. that would be all kinds of cool imho

The car will beat Neons and Cavaliers, assuming both are stock, and the Neon isn't an SRT-4.

Use the $2k to keep the car running well. Trust me, any decent running Porsche beats a modified one that has to sit in the garage because half the engine is apart.

Beyond that, a chip, a new camshaft, and an AC delete kit will probably give the car 20 hp, while losing 50 lbs...an all-round nice car. All for about $1k.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/answer.gif 20hp? You might get 2 or 3 off the chip, maybe 2 or 3 from the AC delete (parasitic loss whatever) and I was pretty sure we couldn't do performance cams on these cars as clearances were a big deal/ blah blah blah somebody posted a thread about it.
here is that thread btw: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/245375-little-cam-info.html?highlight=cam