968 head gasket leak and cost to fix

[jchatfield]

I am looking at a 968 and the owner told me that there is a head gasket leak producing some oil on the ground.

Of course, I'll have a PPI, but I wanted to ask the board the following:

1. I thought a head gasket leak would lead to oil and coolant mixture?

2. Can it be just a oil leak on the ground?

3. What does this cost to fix?

Thanks,

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Probably an oil pan gasket leak, front seals or cam tower gasket - or some combination.

Yes, a head gasket would cause one or more of the following:
- oil in the coolant (the dreaded "milkshake"
- severe smoking under load (most likely white)
- reduced power

You would also likely have lower compression depending on what part of the h/g is breached. A simple compression test will do wonders if you suspect a h/g failure. If you get milkshake and the compression test comes up fine, it's 99% likely to be the oil cooler seals.

In your case, I'd say it's probably the oil pan gasket or something other than a head gasket. Whatever it is, you're in for a world of headaches in fixing it, or a humongous bill if you take it to a mechanic. My personal recommendation is to DIY. By learning to wrench on your own car you'll save a fortune in maintenance costs. Given everything I've done on my cars repair-wise (not counting mods or preventive maintenance, just fixing broken stuff) I estimate I've saved about $20,000 in the last two-or-so years based on $100-an-hour labor rates for shops.

There's no magic to what mechanics do and no reason you can't learn what they know and save the cost. Some stuff requires special tools and such, but it ain't that bad. Big deal, you buy the tools and keep 'em for the next job. They pay for themselves soon enough. Just my $0.02.

Mechanics and shops are sharks when it comes to anything with a "Porsche" badge on it. Don't be their chum, that's all.

[Razorback1980]

Head gaskets protect many channels of air, water and oil. It is possible that a head gasket can leak from any of those channels to any other one or even outside. Sometimes the leak is between water and oil channels and that leads to milky oil and sometimes it's between water and a cylinder which leads to compression in the radiator other times it's between a water jacket and the outside and water runs on the ground. I have never seen it between an oil passage and the outside but it is possible but not probable. Usually, it's the high compression from a cylinder that blows the gasket as that is where all the real pressure is. Typically oil and water don't generate high pressure situations, so they tend to break gaskets fewer times than compression.

I would figure between 1500 and 2000 to replace the head gasket unless you do it yourself. Probably 2 to 3 hundred if you do it yourself. A reputable shop will tell you on the phone exactly what it will cost to replace a head gasket.

The big problem with the 968 is that they only made a few of them so parts are not as plentiful as the other models of Porsches. That is why I wouldn't buy a 968. Not that they are bad cars, just not plentiful...of course that also makes them unique as not many people have them. Depends on your philosophy I guess.

I agree with Jeff, the oil is probably coming from another source. Not sure where that is, so it's impossible to give you any idea of what it would cost to fix.

[jchatfield]

Thanks for the info guys.


razorback - you said that the parts are not plentiful and I understand that, but what impact does that have?

Does that mean basic mechanical parts (head gasket, motor mounts, plug wites, brakes etc) are much more expensive than 944, or does it mean if you need a 968 specific part, they are much more expensive, or just hard to find?

Thanks,

Jim Chatfield

[spieln]

Jim,

Some 968 parts are more difficult to find and more expensive but many are the same as on a 944. Really depends on what you are fixing.

As far as the head is concerned, I would agree with what you are being told about cost. I also agree that if it is just an oil leak, it is probably a seal.

I just replaced the head on my 968 with a rebuilt head and the job is not too bad. Not sure of the miles on the car that you are looking at but if you are going to replace the head gasket, you will probably want to R&R the head. That will cost $250 to $500. You will also want to take a close look at the cam sprockets and at least replace the chain and chain guides. Also a good time to replace belts and rollers if they have not been changed recently. The list can start to add up but it might save some labor down the road.

Good luck,

[Britwrench]

[i]
There's no magic to what mechanics do and no reason you can't learn what they know and save the cost. Some stuff requires special tools and such, but it ain't that bad. Big deal, you buy the tools and keep 'em for the next job. They pay for themselves soon enough. Just my $0.02.

Mechanics and shops are sharks when it comes to anything with a "Porsche" badge on it. Don't be their chum, that's all. [/B]

Glad you don't like using sweeping generalisations in your posts.

[jwade944]

There is a rubber seal on the cam cover along with four rubber seals between the cam cover and the spark plug channels. If the cover seal leaks, then you get oil on the exhaust manifold and the ground on the passenger side. If the plug seals leak, you get oil on top of the spark plugs. Total parts to replace these seals is about $20. It is a very simple repair and you also get to check the Variocam chain, chain guides and sprockets while the cover is off. If you are going to have a PPI, then I recommend including this inspection and have the seals replaced at the same time.

[Razorback1980]

Hey Jim,

I think there are two sides to my statement. If your transmission goes out and you are looking for a used one to swap with, then it's going to be hard to find one and when you do, it's going to cost. If you are looking to replace the broken gear inside and you are buying new, you may have to order it and wait for it's arrival and you will probably pay a little higher price for it. Because there are more 944s, parts places can sell more of those parts and they tend to stock those. There was a young man looking at buying a 968 on here and he was looking for a new engine for it. Turns out the cost for a good engine was between 4 and 5 thousand and there were only three in the whole country from the recyclers that are online. Same engine for a 944 is around a thousand and there are thirty to choose from. Supply and demand. Some of the parts are the same and that helps. Don't confuse what I'm saying though...Porsche doesn't build a bad car, if you buy it you will really like it. I hope that's a given.

I still bet the oil leak won't be as bad a fix as it sounds. As everyone has already said...I'm sure it's just a seal somewhere and it's been misdiagnosed. Even if you have to take it to a mechanic, I'm sure it won't be that much. A good PPI will tell that story. It does make bargaining for the car a little more in your favor though. If you buy it, be sure and visit often, there are a lot of really intelligent individuals here that will help you when you need it.

[jchatfield]

Thanks for all of the input. I should be able to do the PPI on Friday.

I used to own a 944S and did a lot of work myself, including front control arms, rear shocks, steering rack, brakes and muffler. Therefore, I imagine I can do similar work on a 968.

The jobs I'll leave to the pros include the belts & their tensioning and any internal engine or tranny work. Clutch too.

I look forward to joining the 944 world again. I am relpacing my daily driver, a 2002 Lexus IS300. It really is a fine car, but it lacks SOUL. I guess I'm coming back home!

Thanks again.

[jchatfield]

BTW, if it is an oil pan gasket, is that a huge PITA job like on a 944?

[jwade944]

Oil pan gasket is just like the 944. Clutch is much easier than a 944 as Porsche split the bell housing on the 968. You can remove half of the bell housing and a coupler to change the clutch and do not have to remove the transaxle or move the torque tube. Belts are a similar arrangement to late 944 with a pressurized cam tensioner instead of a spring tensioner. Due to some extra rails, you have to remove the crank pulley on the 968 to replace the timing belt. There are also extra undertrays like on a turbo. I have a 968 and race a 924S. I enjoy working on both.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by Britwrench
Glad you don't like using sweeping generalisations in your posts.

Prove me wrong.

I notice you deliberately don't post YOUR labor rates on your web site (the parts of it that work anyway). I guess we can all just draw our own conclusions about why that is, huh?



Sorry, but the only reason I can see taking something to a mechanic would be for something like a clutch job where it's not for want of skill or knowledge or tools, but for convenience. In that particular case I might be inclined to let it be someone else's problem and get a warranty out of it as well. For everything else, I stand by my statements.

The quickest way to go bankrupt in owning a 944 is to pay someone to do your work.

[Britwrench]

I don't need to, I've been in the automotive service industry for a long time, worked on different makes of cars, from independent (and small)shops to importers in various countries and I know there are more than a few people in the business that shouldn't be even allowed near cars. But, that is the case with nearly every type of business in the world.

Most people, in whichever business they are involved in try to do their best. Some don't succeed, but others put their hearts into achieving as much as possible and both meet and exceed customer's expectations.

It's easy to have a viewpoint that is both illogical and unrealistic. In the real world, it doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

[AFJuvat]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile

There's no magic to what mechanics do and no reason you can't learn what they know and save the cost.

You are absolutely correct, it is just a mechanical object. So I'll tell you what, fly on out, you can rebuild this motor that is on deck. You can rebuild it, and I'll even pay for the parts and the machine work.

You will then warranty your rebuild

Screw up - one leak, one drip, one thing not correct and you get to do it over again, and pay for it all out of your pocket.

Some stuff requires special tools and such, but it ain't that bad. Big deal, you buy the tools and keep 'em for the next job. They pay for themselves soon enough. Just my $0.02.

$0.02 - try again ace I only work on Porsches and have over $15k in tools. When you are fixing things for someone else, you can't half-ass a job with krikits and the junk you see on the net.

Mechanics and shops are sharks when it comes to anything with a "Porsche" badge on it. Don't be their chum, that's all.

That is why I have customers that come all the way from West Palm Beach and Ocala for me to work on their cars, because I shark them for all of their money - just because it has a Porsche badge on it...

That is why I have customers come out to my shop and hang out on their lunch hours watching other peoples cars get fixed - because we are all about taking their money...

Thats why my co-workers and I get invited to x-mas parties, weddings, baptisms, etc from our customers... They love us taking their money so much that they invite us to events to cost them even more money.

Thats why I have given parts away.

That is also why I (and Britwrench) spend so much time here giving advice for free, because it is all about the money.... at least according to you.

I notice you deliberately don't post YOUR labor rates on your web site (the parts of it that work anyway). I guess we can all just draw our own conclusions about why that is, huh?

Well, my shop doesn't have a website, but if you want me to fix your car at my shop, it will cost you $84.00\hour.

Pay my utilities, pay my liability insurance, pay my healthcare costs for all of the employees, and make sure that everyone gets paid a decent wage and come talk to me about hourly rates.

Sorry, but the only reason I can see taking something to a mechanic would be for something like a clutch job where it's not for want of skill or knowledge or tools, but for convenience.

Clearly, you have never spent any significant amount of time in a shop. actually dealing with customers.

In that particular case I might be inclined to let it be someone else's problem and get a warranty out of it as well.

For everything else, I stand by my statements.

The quickest way to go bankrupt in owning a 944 is to pay someone to do your work.

I'll agree with the last part, you will go broke paying to fix them. Then again, if half the owners would spend the time to fix things properly and maintain things properly, their need to come and see me would be significantly less.

Just keep painting everyone with that big wide brush that you use...

AFJ

[AFJuvat]

Turning now to the original post.

1. I thought a head gasket leak would lead to oil and coolant mixture?

That is possible. But with just oil leaking on the ground, I would be more inclined to believe a valve cover gasket leak rather than a head gasket leak.

2. Can it be just a oil leak on the ground?

944\968 tend to drip oil from the following locations:

Oil pan gasket (not economically viable to repair unless you do it yourself or it is a severe leak)

Lower Balance shaft O-ring - same as an oil pan gasket.

Front seals

Power steering system

3. What does this cost to fix?

If it is a head gasket leak, it will set you back around $1500 or so to have a shop change the gasket. Again, I am more inclined to believe that it is a valve cover gasket, whech can be done by yourself, and the gasket set is about $50.00

Definately get a PPI.

In accordance with Porsche-O-Phile's statements that mechanics are sharks and are only about the money, you now owe me $21.00 USD, which is my minimum charge to answer a question.

AFJ

[livewirevoodoo]

I bring my car to my mechanic because I want the job done right the first time. Before owning my 944 the most I knew about cars was where to put the gas and where to put the key. I've learned enough in the past 18 months, between Pelican and Clarks to do a good deal of my own work and probably save a G note in labor charges. But I'll gladly pay the $79/hr I'm charged labor for something I have neither the means, knowledge or desire to do myself.

I dunno... I don't have the same level of resentment or hostility towards auto mechanics.

I save that feeling for car salesmen.


Oh yea btw... Good luck with the 968, Chatfield!

[Britwrench]

I think cutting down on the brewery research would possibly help the attitude.
Ok, I'm going to edit this: remove "attitude" and replace it with "perception of other people's business ethics"

[HiFiGuy66]

AFJuvat,

How far is your shop from Orlando?

Thanks

[AFJuvat]

HiFiGuy

I'm about 1 hour from Orlando - east on teh Bee line, then south on 95 to 518

AFJ

[HiFiGuy66]

AFJ,

Shop name and phone number?

I've got a regular mechanic that I use, but wouln't mind using you for backup if the need arises. I hope that doen't sound offensive, but I've been going to Dennis for years. If he goes on vacation or something, and I need work, I'm screwed. He's a one man shop.

Thanks!