New Engine!?

[DeanCorleone]

Ok well my expo is rather limited when it comes to rebuilding engines, or putting them in for that matter... I've dropped trannys, taken engines out of other types of cars... just never did the install. I'm thinking of putting a new engine into my NA 944 - Speed Force Racing has new 2.5Ls for 2000, and I was wondering if anyone has any better prices, or if anyone has used this company in general for anything? Along with that said maybe some type of engine swap / remove / install postings on this board? Rather new to porsche and still getting used to the fact that the engine is in the front and tranny in the rear... Either way looking for addition input - the current engine is old and very tired...

[DeanCorleone]

Well I found abit of information on the swaping of engines, with some nice pictures thanks to someone that goes by "cchyper" from this board...

http://ccc944raceproject.blogspot.com/

Still wondering about the company and if anyones used it - for that matter if anyone also bought their supercharger kit...

[Brando]

Speed Force Racing (see how I made that italic and red? it looks fast doesn't it?) has been mentioned here a few times, but I've not read many reviews or user comments about their engines. If you're talking a crate rebuilt engine for $2000, that's probably their base engine, sans flywheel/clutch assembly. I believe you can tell them what sort of addons you would like, but like any engine assembling company, the more goodies you add, the more the end price goes up.

If anything, with your engine, maybe go for a cam better than stock and the DME chip to accompany it. I believe they can reprogram a chip to match your cam/intake/exhaust, but like I said, I haven't read much on the extent of their services...

[Porsche-O-Phile]

SFR has a pretty good reputation but cripes. . . you could spend more than $2k on one of their exhaust systems alone!

I don't know for sure but given their pricing (which tends to be on the high end because their stuff has a pretty good reputation) I'd suspect the $2,000 is a fairly bare-bones/stock type engine - maybe even a short block with only minor cleaning & prepping (no major internal work) but check for yourself. If that price included any of their better pieces/parts I'd be surprised.

[JivenJim]

Has this been re-build?? That's dirt cheap for a rebuild or partially rebuild engine (seal, belts, and water pump. Post mileage and what Tim at SFR did to it. Or is it just the Engine that came outta a car that something better went in.. Don't bother swapping Engines if the basics have not been rebuild/replaced and that's near $1000 in parts.
Details will get you better answers.
Generally I'd agree SFR seems on the up and up but pricey.

[DeanCorleone]

All they said so far is a 'rebuilt' 2.5L (stock rebuild) I am guessing. Since in the long run I'll be going with the SFR lvl 2 supercharger kit on this new engine, any suggestions on compression ratios so forth... or will the supercharger be fine on the stock NA 2.5L engine? (It will be running around 8 PSI with intercooler.)

Either way I'm still waiting on addition information from these fellas - the first reply they got back to me fast, now its taking awhile. A engine swap seems rather simple in these cars so far.

[JivenJim]

Shop guys who work with 10K+ budgets get more attention, now-a-days. Can't hold that against them. Lots of us low budget racers, start to email these guys with big talk, then find the bottom line to be more than we could afford. Thus, wasted effort for them. I think the Phone works better with SFR than E-mail. If you need a man on the street, let me know. I'm 20 minutes away and armed with a Digital Camera.
If your not rebuilding then, 8 PSI max should be good on stocks. You can also easily transfer if you're building a for-boost engine later. Also if you're in a Smog patrol liberal zone such as California, It's much nicer to smog with the Super-kit off. Not that they're dirty, just laws have baseless regulations like; No modified intakes/filter that don't carry DOT certification. Like there's anything you could do to an air filter to make the Exhaust more dirty... But I digress. So make sure bearings, Piston rings, all gaskets, seals, valve seats, and fresh head gasket. Would ask Tim SFR your plans and ask what he would prep for some extra in$entive. Leave yourself lots of time, patients, and diligents.
Switching the Engines not that bad. Plenty of post around here and procedures on Clarks-garage.com.

Find out the specifics on that engine thoe before you lay down the cash. Still sounds kinda cheap. Warrantee? Would hope for 90+ days full money back.

I like the Blog for Cypher. Nice work and pictures.

Also where you located?

[DeanCorleone]

I'm located all the way on the otherside of the states, Maryland. He just got back to me saying its 2000 for a rebuild, 750 for a lower compression setup making it better for the car to handle 15PSI of boost - which really shouldn't matter to much because I'm not planning to boost the hell out of it. He also mentioned core charges, shipment of engines (350-400 bucks)...

The only thing I'm not very clear on will the car run fine with a lower compression setup WITHOUT the supercharger? I'm not made of money and well most likely I won't be able to put a charger on it for awhile after the engine swap. Which is more ensentive for me to keep the stock motor setup. I just want 240 to the wheels w/intercooler - right now thats my goal atleast. I figure if I get the engine from these guys - maybe when I return for the supercharger they might cut me a deal... most likely not. *cackles*

Also once I do add their supercharger kit (which I've already asked him, waiting on reply.) how will the fuel management work? I'm no tuner... I know it comes with a fuel pressure regulator (I believe) and 944 Turbo injectors... not sure what else, I've yet to find anyone that has their kit on their car...

[JivenJim]

Maryland.. I bet that's wonderfully pretty this time of year.

Sounds like stock the kit could be the best option. The 944's still around 10 compression ratio. Turbo piston for 750 installed is a deal. I think you could get another 50 HP or so by going that route but would be worried about underpowered springs, in particular. I've never known anyone who ran Low Cr Pistons without boost. Maybe ask that on the Turbo Page. I had pondered that same question over the last few months of my rebuild. I would think it would run like a 100 hp civic and probably too rich. I opted to keep the pistons stock and make it good to go without boost for the sacrifice of lower boosted power later. IE the cheaper option.

I would think 8 PSI would be closer to 240HP Crank or ~205 WHp with a 15% drive train loss to the wheels. But you'll delineate notice that.

From what I've read on the SFR Kit: It manages fuel by using heavier Injectors, Adjustable fuel Regulator set at higher PSI and a custom Cooked DME Chip. That ATI C2 Super Charger could handle tons of boost, but you'd have to rebuild the internals to handle it.

Now that you mention Core Charges, I guess that means you also have to give him your old engine. So now you're talking 2000+400+400 + deposit. $2800 delivered for rebuild swap, sounds reasonable for door to door delivery. Be Careful with Crate and Send your old returned to SFR.
Doesn't the Kit remove the AC Compressor? If so you might as well start taking off the whole system while the engine is out. That's like 80Lbs (or ~4hp) right there!
If you want the package deal, get it in writing. As a matter of fact, always get exactly what is and isn't included in written estimate. I wouldn't expect any discount there, since it's parts, not labor.

As I mentioned, I'll be happy to scope out things for you. Don't take vendor delays as a sign for anything. Unfortunately these guys are All Motor heads and not Business PR people.

If things don't work out with the Engine, then you could always find a shop out there to rebuild your Engine and do the Super kit later. Stock is Stock right...

I could Swing by the SFR tomorrow eve. I'm interested to see what's currently in their shop? I know how much anxiety there is in trying to decide what to do and who to trust. Can't guarantee results.. but independent source of first hand verification helps a guys wallet sleep at night :+)

Here's a post I found of someone using SFR kit for 968.
http://www.968s.com/engine.htm> also look at current topic of Megasquirt for some insight.

[DeanCorleone]

Yeah - either way depending on the core charge ( yet to be told how much that will be. ) I might keep the old engine... I've never really rebuilt an engine - I've removed 2, and installed 1... but never built one myself... so I wouldn't mind trying. "Wouldn't hurt to have an extra engine laying around."

Either way yeah I guess it would run very rich with lower compression - you said a NA 944 is like 10? Whats the turbo at do you know off hand? 8ish? 9? *Shrugs* this is my first Porsche, before I used to play with DSMs (4 cylinder turbo eclipses.) but I wanted a car abit less common, which brings me to where I am right now.

Either way yeah sure if you're heading that direction, go ahead and peak at the shop for me... take afew pictures if ya can. I figured it would also include a chip - but since that kit is going to be way down the road, I didn't even get a exact list of items included yet. Guys most likely already tired of answering my multi-question, annoying e-mails.

Thanks for the post with the 968 - going to check that out now.

[JivenJim]

Turbo pistons CR's about 8.5
Yea.. emails and shops...
I'll bring my Sherlock Homes outfit tomorrow.

[DeanCorleone]

Haha - sounds good. My e-mails DeanCorleone@Adelphia.net throw some my way Homes.

[DeanCorleone]

Well they got back to me today - its 2000 for a short block, what a waste of time really - they said "Rebuilt 2.5L Engine- $1995" along with that there is a core charge that is 1000 dollars, so if for some reason they don't want to give your money back (which they state if the engine is in a "damanged condition" you won't get the core return...)

So a short review - 2000 for a short block... ready for the head to be timed... 750 for lower compression pistons... 400 to get the short block shipped to your house... 1000 for the core charge until you send them your engine (they can pretty much keep this money if they wanted.) and 400 to send the engine back. All in all you could be out 4550 bucks for a short block... crazyness to me, these are rebuilt items.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by DeanCorleone
All in all you could be out 4550 bucks for a short block... crazyness to me, these are rebuilt items.

Yeah, considering I've priced brand spankin new short blocks from Porsche at around $5500 and as low as under $5000 from one place.
There are very few left...

[jgp0rsche]

i have a couple spare engines with manifolds, and wiring harnesses if you're interested.

[DeanCorleone]

For the most I'm interested in a rebuilt engine - want my 944 tickin for awhile. Im going to go with a stock replacement (don't know if you've been following my posts in this topic) I've never rebuilt an engine... not sure if I'd do it right... but I want to ensure I got something with low miles. Where u located?

[jgp0rsche]

I have an 80K mile S motor, 91K mile turbo motor.... so low miles for 944 engines. i'm in VA

[JivenJim]

Got Stuck late at work today Dean.
Now it's starting to sound more normal priced.
I doubt they would purposely lead you on...
So you have some options. You could Strip down your Engine and send it to a machine shop, and maybe even have them assemble everything including Timing...
I know a good shop out here that I'm going to include in my Engine Write-up when I'm finished (about 2 months)
Or maybe you could do the whole thing and hire a local guy to come check your work along the way.

You still want me to dig around SFR tomorrow?

If you're going to rebuild (which you should) I wouldn't pay premium for low mileage Engine. With this many years, parts are due to be replaced anyway. I would think you could get the machining done for $1200 and about 1500-2500 in parts, turning the wrench yourself.

FYI: You're about in the same place I was before I decided for a bigger Engine Swap.
Turbo Swaps, 968s', S2's or Stock. Now.. your beer will earn it's keep.

[DeanCorleone]

Haha. Sounds like I'll be shadowing your footsteps. I would most likely make a error in the process of rebuilding it myself. I used to have a DSM buddy that would rip is engine apart, and put it back together on weekends for fun... (not because something broke!) I might try and get into touch with him. Have a shop machine it for me - maybe go do the rebuild with this guy on weekends. Either way I'm still interested in that companys supercharger kit so feel more then free to check the place out. People say sell the car and buy a turbo if more power is what I want... but that 7 grand I spend on a turbo engine will put me right back into this spot - wanting to rebuild the engine... Either way still very interested in rebuilding it.

Oh guess what? I had a odd problem, for a day rather... thought it was the transmission for a minute... while in gear, under acceleration - a loud timed knock (depending upon speed) which is hard to discribe - not a ping, ding, nor tick... more of a clunk would come from the rear of the car... the higher up in gear I go the lower the sound (1 and 2 were loud, 3rd you could hear it but not loud... 4th and 5th not much at all.) when I'd turn left, the sound would go away / not appear (depending if I'm making a left at a light) but when going straight, or making a right its pretty bad...

Ontop of me getting all worried... it stop'd on the way home today. I figured if it was going to break I might as well enjoy my cruise home... so I drove abit faster then normal. I know it seems stupid but to me thats the easy'st way to find out whats weak and not working correct. LoL.

Didnt proof read any of this so if some of it didn't make sense after my 12 hour day... forgive me.

P.S. Lets hear about these bigger engine swaps?

[JivenJim]

Yes trying to get more power is problematic when we have a car we love.
The Problem is what every you get, you will probly still want more.

Maybe time for CV Re-build for you noise issue. Or Rear Bearings?? Socal or someone sharper on those can steer you with seperate post.
Lower gears put more toque thus more noise.

ps.. Don't recommend trying what I've done for sake of your own personal time, money and sanity :+)