water/methanol injection system????

[dally_de]

hi,
what do u guys think about water/methanol injection system??? did anyone put one in his 944?? did anyone came across one??
thank's

[many944s]

I've never used water or methanol injection, but have helped build an experimental 944 with Nitrous. While it is quite impressive, I HIGHLY recommend against it.

-Nick

[dally_de]

can u say also why??

[many944s]

I would have to dig out some old documents from the build, but the NOS did provide some impressive run times. In the end, the engine only made 5-6 runs down the .25 mile before blowing oil out the tail pipe.

When the engine was torn down, it was found that a couple of the compression rings completely burned through. Unfortunately there was no reason for us to try different rings as the owner decided to go a different route in nastolgic drags.

The 944 engine is great for everyday driving and performs well in Auto-X, but in the end if you are looking for max-hp or insane torque, it just isn't the motor to build on, unless you don't mind rebuilding it on a regular ba$i$!!

-Nick

[pozican]

Why would you want to?

On the 944 it doesn't seem like detonation is a large enough problem to warrant water/meth injection.

The 951 after plenty of mods maybe...

[dally_de]

i do not know if i want it or not...i'm just doing a research on it...
from what i heard ..if u know how to set the timing it can offer u some more power ??? do not know if it is true ..i'm in research ..

[ideola]

Water / Alcohol / Methanol injection can be used on ANY internal combustion engine to:
a) cool the temp of intake air (a.k.a. charge cooling), thereby increasing the oxygen density, and theoretically improving hp
b) in the case of alc or meth, can act as an octane boost

You may be surprised to learn that many turbo diesels, especially in large motor homes, come equipped with such systems from the OEM or added as aftermarket options.

That said, the most typical use of water/alc/meth injection is on forced induction applications (turbo or supercharger), primarily because compressed air has a higher temp, which can ultimately lead to detonation. Theoretically, such an injection system can simultaneously lower the charge temp and boost octane, both of which can mitigate the chances of detonation.

Such a system MAY be used on a normally aspirated charge with nominal improvements to HP. There's no reason you can't add it. The real question is whether or not there's measurable benefit to justify the cost/effort. On a 924/944 NA motor, it's doubtful you would see much benefit. On a 931 or 951 with higher-than-stock boost, there could most definitely be some benefits. Might offer a cheaper and easier alternative to intercooling for *moderate* levels of boost.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an expert, but I have already done a bit of my own research on the topic and have decided to add a methanol injection system to my 931, but not to my NA. There are some really good threads on the topic with pointers to other external sources over at 924board.org (use the search feature...don't have time to dig them up just now, sorry).

[flash968]

water injection is a very old and proven method of getting more out of an engine

lower intake temp means more power - every 15 degrees you can lower the intake temp, you gain 2 hp

by reducing intake temps, and altering the mixture, you also open the door for pushing the envelope more easily - more timing can be added without detonation, and higher compression can be used

stand alone, you don't see a lot, but in conjunction with other modifications, you can maximize what is available

[dally_de]

thank u guys...i will see what will do..first of all i want to do some internal modification ...porting and polishing new seals and gaskets..also i'm thinking to a MSD 6A 6200 and a MSD blaster coil for the ignition system (what do u think>???) and also would like a different cam...probably a chip (anyone know a good one for a 85.5 n/a ???)...

[ideola]

Get ready for a lot of folks to tell you it's not worth the time and effort for the modest performance gains, and to just go buy a 951...just a warning ;-)

If you're measuring on the horsepower-to-dollar ratio, the above line of reasoning holds water. On the other hand, if you're like me, and you're measuring on the subjective benefits-to-dollar ratio, here's my $.02:

MSD = good
Chip = good
Cam = don't get too wild, maybe just a stage 1 for a street application

I don't have that much practical experience (yet) with the 2.5L engines, but all the things you're talking about make sense to me in terms of eeking out a bit more "zip" from the NA motor.

From my perspective, I like doing these sorts of things just to learn, to fiddle with my cars, to have an excuse to be under the hood and working with my hands. The subjective benefits I reap from these "investments" in my hobby far outweigh the purely objective gains in performance, however small they may be. So, I say, if it makes you happy and you have the $$$, go for it! It's all fun stuff.

[dally_de]

i know the part...Buy a 951......but i do not want that..also can't find them close...anyway...

it is ok ,because i do not have to pay for someone to do all that for me,i will do it. i would like to have a 300hp car..,but i know that i cant have it from my 2.5l n/a..and i'm ok with that...things that i want to do it is not to get lots of power from it...all that i want it is a much better throttle response and i want to feel the car like it should..i want to feel it smooth and that the engine will feel much more ''happy'' ) this is my daily drive car..and the only one..so i want to enjoy it as much as i can...and if i will accomplish all of that..then i will be happy and probably buy a 300hp car...

[ideola]

I'm right there with ya! I agree entirely...have fun with what you've got!

i want ... much better throttle response

Don't overlook the weltmeister throttle cam replacement...supposedly helps with improving throttle response. Not sure about Europe, but they can be had for $28 new, less than that on eBay.

[dally_de]

i fabricated one when i got the car..

[BoxxerSix]

Think of water injection as a "poor mans" twin plug ignition setup on a boxer engine. Aside from the safety net it offers, probably the biggest benefit of using an injection system...whether it's alky/meth/water or propane...........is it allows you to run MORE ignition timing safely without the increased risk of detonation. Advanced timing increased power, especially low end torque where you feel it.

Other effects..... lower combustion chamber temps, near elimination of localized hot spots/preignition, cleaner burning combustion processes, etc.....

If you have the money to run it, have a true need for it, and are SMART enough to maintain the system, use it. The vast majority of na 944's are not going to see much if anything from it aside from a cleaner burning motor.

I've run meth injection in every turbocharged car I've owned and will be adapting it to my current project in the future.

[dally_de]

thank u BoxxerSix for your reply...with all the mods that i want to do,i think that it will be great to run a water/meth injection system..specially if i will gain more low end power(i drive my car mostly all the time in the city) problem that i'm concern it is to set up the timing ..now for example if i run too lean when i drive and take the foot of the throttle pedal,the rpm drops to much near to 300-400rpm for a sec,and the go to normal...i do not know if i can do something with that(only if run too lean)so i'm thinking that if i will do all the mods (porting,polishing,chip,msd?,and water/methanol injection)will i be able to run it more lean? maybe someone can explain me the process and will be kind to teach me how to do it...
and btw BoxxerSix...what did u mean with :''if u are smart enough to maintain the system??
thank you u for your time,

[pozican]

"rpm drops to much near to 300-400 rpm for sec"

Your car happen to be a pre 85.5?

It's a common problem, something to do with either cutting ignition or fuel until tach reaches 1k, but it doesn't start it back up fast enough.

I don't remember, but it's like lift and shudder or something.

Anyway, I think there are some chips that fix the problem...



On another note, if you do do the water / meth injection, make sure to document it, I know I was considering it for a much later mod on my turbo

[dally_de]

it is a 85.5 model...i'm considering a chip..and it will be great if it will get rid of that problem...

[BoxxerSix]

Originally posted by dally_de

and btw BoxxerSix...what did u mean with :''if u are smart enough to maintain the system??
thank you u for your time,

Maintaining means monitoring the fluid level and every now and then checking that the injection nozzles are clean....both to avoid running a tuned engine that requires the injection and having it clog or run dry.


check out the stage 2 system by snow Performance.....best meth ibnjection system out there. and get the 7 quart fluid tank.


or you can make you own system....theres a few places for instructions online with part locators for you

[dally_de]

i'm thinking to make my own system...but i'm not sure about 2 things..maybe u can help me:
-pressure for the pump?? 2-3 bar??
-the nozzle dimension??i have a nozzle and the bore is 0.5mm..i'm not sure how it should be???

[BoxxerSix]

Originally posted by dally_de
i'm thinking to make my own system...but i'm not sure about 2 things..maybe u can help me:
-pressure for the pump?? 2-3 bar??
-the nozzle dimension??i have a nozzle and the bore is 0.5mm..i'm not sure how it should be???

Here's all the information you're going to need for a DIY methanol injection system. good reading i might add

http://members.aol.com/raydorman/wi_links.htm