Used (working) Starter + New Solenoid = Intermittant Start

[exitwound]

Yes, this has been addressed in other threads, but I've tried everything under the sun, and the car is still intermittant upon the key turn.

Things Done

• Battery is fully charged. Tested with Voltmeter. >12V
• All terminals cleaned of rust/corrosion on battery, starter, and solenoid.
• 12V solid signal from battery to starter at large post on solenoid.
• 12V solid signal from ignition switch when key turned at small post on solenoid.
• Brand new solenoid.
• Second used starter.
• Starter removed from car multiple times for best alignment.

Symptoms

• Key turn = no solenoid click (sometimes).
• Key turn = rapidly clicking solenoid (sometimes).
• Key turn = solenoid click, engine not turning. Starter sounds quiet (sometimes).
• Key turn = solenoid click, starter rotates rapidly not engaging engine (sometimes).
• Key turn = solenoid click, starter rotates, engages engine, car starts (rarely).
• All powered items in the car function properly with solid operation (no dimming headlights, no slow windows etc).

Thoughts

• The only thing I Haven't done is investigate the ignition swich. But since the switch is sending a solid signal to the starter upon EVERY key turn, I figure it's still good.
• I've tried two starters with two solenoids and both are showing the same intermittancy in the starter engaging leading me to believe that it's something else. I've cleaned all the terminals everywhere including the attachments on the battery cables, the starter itself, the solenoid, even all grounding wires I could find on the car.
• Car will run fine when the starter finally works.

What is the function of the cable leading from the starter to the alternator? I've taken that off, cleaned all its terminals as well just to be sure. Why is this cable necessary?

Am I missing something? Could this be an ignition switch issue rather than a starter issue? Two starters with three different solenoids (one brand new) with no resolution leads me to believe I'm missing something. What else, theoretical or hypothetical, could cause an intermittant starter? I know the car has no lockouts for starting (unlike my VW with a seat belt check), so that's not an issue.

ANY help would be great as I'm without a reliable car at the moment.

Thanks.

[Slam]

Considering how cheap and easy it is to R&R the ignition switch, I'd do it as a matter of course. It is odd that you do get power to the starter and it behaves erratically. When my ignition switch died it killed the car, period. Even though the switch sends power to the starter it may not be sending enough.

[speedracing944]

I wonder what kind of shape the huge power cable which goes to the starter is in. This is the cable which carries the large amperage load required by the starter. If there are broken wires or corrosion in there it may not be able to carry enough amperage. Do you have access to a clamp on Amp meter which you could put on this cable and get a reading?

Speedy

[exitwound]

I shall look at that suggestion in the morning. thanks!

Update: Car tonight would not start. Turn the key = nothing. I got under the car and attempted to jump the terminals on the starter. The result was the solenoid engaging and spinning, but it didn't sound like it was engaging the flywheel at all. I tried to turn the key again, and all i got was a fast-clicking solenoid. the car would not start.

[bholmes]

My cousin had a truck that ate starters for some reason or another. He always parked on a hill...have you tried that yet?

[onZedge]

Are you replacing the starter motor AND the gearhead with used ones? There are planetary reduction gears in the nosepiece that can get chewed up and jam. Drove me nuts for months until it finally failed.
-Use an ohmmeter to check the resistance of the heavy cables to the starter as well as the cable between the ignition switch and starter solenoid. You should get a reading VERY close to zero ohms.
-Clean the ground connection between the battery and body and especially the battery and engine.

BTW, the wire from the alternator to the starter is the charging path to the battery.

[exitwound]

Took the starter to Advance Auto and had it tested. Perfect condition, they say. Took the battery for a battery test. Perfect as well, though it was a tad beneath full charge. They charged it for me in the process. Put it all back in the car and the car started up FOUR times. The fifth time (several hours later) it started fine. The sixth time (10 minutes later) the car was extremely sluggish in starting as if the starter wasn't getting enough juice from the battery such as on a cold winter day. It eventually did start. I'm guessing that if I try to start it today, it will fail.

Does this point to the battery not being charged as I drive?

Before the battery test, the voltage across the terminals was reading 12.19V. After they charged it, it read 12.97V.

[Dave101]

I had battery that was causing the same symptoms that you are having. The battery even checked out which was even stranger. I looked at my battery an noticed that it was 4 years old anyway so I went a head and purchased a new one. Now I have no problem at all. This was on my GMC truck but for what a new battery costs it was a cheap fix.

[earlr85944]

The wire from the alternator to the starter is charging the battery as it connects to the same terminal an the battery positive side. You havnt tried everyhing under the sun yet. You could use an assistant to diagnose this to crank or hold wires while testing, or get a remote starter. When it happens again, take a nice heavy wire from the + side of battery to the terminal that energizes the solenoid or you can jumper from the heavy cable at the starter to the enregizing terminal, this will rule out the ign sw.

Good advice to check the OHM readings as indicated also. BTW 12V can run my IPOD but it wont crank my starter unless I have some heavy amps, so a good solid connection is needed.

[toolboy62]

12.19V is too low for a "12v" battery. What is the voltage at the battery with the engine running?

nate

[exitwound]

Indeed it is not, which is why I'm trying to figure out how a one-year old battery (to the week) is no longer fully charging.

The car started this morning twice. I drove it around the block (~1.5-2miles) and got it up to temperature. All the while, the in-dash meter read ~13V. By the end of the trip, the meter read 12V, which I'm guessing means that the battery & alternator are floating at this point. If wrong, correct me please. Turned the car off, the fans continued to run. Attempted to restart the car and nothing. Not even the solenoid clicks.

Right now, I'm charging the car to see if after a while, it starts.

I will have the running volts checked here shortly.

[jwade944]

The alternator is connected to the battery through the connection at the starter. In addition to checking the grounds at the rear of the engine, you may want to check the condition of the cable between the starter and the battery. If it is failing as it is heated, then this may explain both the starter and the charging problems.

[exitwound]

I don't believe the intermittancy is related to engine temp though.

Fully charged from the house

Battery POS --> Battery NEG : 12.80V
Solenoid Ignition --> GND with Key Turn: 11.8V
Battery POS --> Battery NEG while key turn (no starter engagement) : 12.2V [assuming this is due to dash being on?]
Solenoid/Battery POS --> Engine GND : 12.80V

Car will not attempt to engage the starter so I cannot check the "while running" voltage across the battery.

All terminals cleaned and shined. All grounds (as far as I can find) the same.

How do I test/check the wire between the starter and the battery?

[exitwound]

Here is a picture (composed of two shots, sorry) looking up under the dashboard from the foot pedals.

• What are these three module boxes?
• Are any of them non-factory such as aftermarket alarms that could have been installed prior to my purchasing the car?
• If there would have been a factory alarm, where would it be and how would I find out if I have one?

Car is fully charged right now and the starter will not engage.

Also, while inspecting my grounds behind the engine one more time, I noticed that the fat wire which goes from the battery to the engine block has some damage. Could this be not helping the situation??

[jwade944]

If that cable was shorting to something metal (as in the sensor bracket) then it could definitely be causing your problem. I would take a hard look at the entire cable to see if the rest of the insulation is in similar condition. Note that the brown ground wire should be attached to the engine block - not the intake manifold. (It may just be loose for the photo, but I'm not sure, so I thought I would throw that out there.)

[jwade944]

If your car had a factory alarm, there would be a keyhole outside the car, to the rear of the driver side door to arm and disarm it. I'm not sure about No. 3, but No. 1 and 2 are not factory modules.

[exitwound]

Alright, that's a start at least! Keep the ideas coming. Thanks for all the help

Oh, and I took that ground off the intake and properly attached it to the engine block further down with the other grounding wires. Didn't fix anything, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt.

[onZedge]

Did you ohm out the cables while you had it apart like I suggested? I hope you realize that these cables are 21 years old and are mechanically worn out as your photo clearly indicates.

[jwade944]

There are two ground wires in your photo. The smaller one should be connected to a post on the rear of the block. The large one (loose in your photo) should be connected to a post about one inch further back on the bell housing.

[exitwound]

Where do I connect the ohmmeter on the ignition switch?

Battery cable to starter = .4 Ohms.