Turbo vs Turbo S

1982911sc · 02:06 PM

I have had my 86 951 going on eight months and now that I have her fully sorted (knocking on some serious wood), I really enjoy the car. Handles amazingly, fast, timeless looks..I can go on. One thought I have considered is selling the car in the spring to replace it with a Turbo S. My car is bone stock with the exception of the a test pipe. I would look for a similar S, no mods.

Has anyone driven both? Can you tell a difference in the performance from an acceleration and handling aspect?

Would it be worth the hassle to sell a sorted low mileage 951 and replace it with a similar S?

Thanks!

J1NX3D · J1NX3D's Garage

imho, but having never owned either, if you're perfectly happy with your non-S re: its colour, interior, mechanical condition, etc, then keep it. with simple sensible mods ( chip, maf, susension, etc) you can have your car perform better then an S in no time.

phoenix_iii · 10-31-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd924

imho, but having never owned either, if you're perfectly happy with your non-S re: its colour, interior, mechanical condition, etc, then keep it. with simple sensible mods ( chip, maf, susension, etc) you can have your car perform better then an S in no time.

Trade (or basically BUY UP) a sure thing for a 'non-sure' thing? No thanks.

=)

1982911sc · 10-31-2007, 12:04 PM

Good advice guys, very wise! Just for curiosity sake, has anyone driven both and can you really feel the extra 30 or so horse! I would guess yes, I just wonder how much?

88BlueTSiQuest · 10-31-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1982911sc

Good advice guys, very wise! Just for curiosity sake, has anyone driven both and can you really feel the extra 30 or so horse! I would guess yes, I just wonder how much?

Yes, you would feel the difference driving the 2 back to back...... However......

For a mere $50 to $300(price of chips, used to new) you can simulate that in your car. Remember the performance difference comes from the turbo and increased boost. If you chip your car, and crank the boost to ~15, you have basically gone beyond the performance of the S. At that point really the only advantages the S would retain are it's brakes, suspension(though it may be worn) and LSD(if you don't have one yourself).

I really thought I wanted an S, but after reading, learning and searching, I decided that it really didn't justify the difference in price.

Edited....... Also, having an '86, you do currently own the lightest factory turbo released. AND........ You can be the envy of the S owners by running Fuchs.

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Ive driven a friends 951S and a 951, not back to back however. The boost on the 951S felt like it came on slightly later on the 951, but honestly its hard to tell. The 951S shines at higher HP with the K26/8 as boost does not bleed off as much like the stock K26/6 on the 951. The difference is really peak hp at the expense of some spool up time.

Like Jack mentioned, there are some nice things on the 951S, but a few of which are sort of nullified on a higher mileage car. The factory sport suspension is probably worn out and that goes the same for the LSD (im talking 100k mile cars).

The 30hp difference is basically nothing as soon as you chip the 951..and for just over $1000 (possibly what you saved by not by paying a premium for a 951S) you can get pretty darn close to 300bhp (exhaust, chip, wastegate, 3bar FPR, boost controller)

The 951S also featured some gusset plates to stiffen the shock towers, but i dont believe you would actually feel this difference.

ilikemy944 · 11-01-2007, 01:24 PM

I've had both.
Stock 951 - SLOW.
Vitesse chipped 951 - FUN.
Vitesse chipped 951S - VERY FUN.

Can't compare suspension as there are too many options.
The stock one was soft as hell, the chipped one has konis and the S had an even stiffer setup.

2Tight · 11-01-2007, 02:18 PM

I've driven my Sapphire Metallic 86 w/ a K26/6 and Guru Map Link...it ran well compared to a friends stock 26/6. My 86 black daily driver is a K26/8 upgrade, Vitesse chipped, shimmed WG, and 3-bar FPR. It runs much much better than the 26/6 and holds 16 psi almost to 6K. I've driven a stock 951S and it was nothing compared to my chipped 26/8 and felt even more sluggish around town. I'm building the Sapphire Metallic car with good mods but nothing wild, Garrett
T3/T4R, 55# injectors, Tial, Maxtronics, and 3' exhaust. Hopefully this one will become my 'keeper' and provide a safe 300-320 @ the wheels. I do like the suspension, trans, and brake upgrades on the 'S' but personally I wouldn't pay the premium for the bragging rights.

1982911sc · 11-01-2007, 06:58 PM

Thanks all for the input, I am thinking I should be happy with what I have as it seems to be such a well sorted car...now the big question...to mod or not!! I am happy with the performance of the car stock...but hmmmm maybe just a chip!! Coupled with the test pipe, maybe that will cure my bug? Any suggestions, I keep hearing Vitesse??

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

http://www.vitesseracing.com/
http://www.maxhpkit.com/

These are basically the two most predominant aftermarket chip tuners right now.

Aslet · 11-01-2007, 07:09 PM

There are some nice upgrade kits on the Lindsey Racing website that you may want to look at. For about $1000 you can get a kit that will give you 320 bhp... For the turbo's, chipping will get you some more good power as well. Just remember that unless you are just got for top speed, suspension is the way to go for upgrades. If you cannot transfer the power to the road it is worthless, so a good suspension and tires will give you more performace than raw HP. Also if you dont want to goto jail, suspension will make you ride feel better and you dont have to go 100 mph to know its running nicely... As long as you balance HP, suspension, and brakes you can have a real fun ride... Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

-Randy

TonyG · 04:06 PM

I've been around the block with 944 turbos...

As mentioned above... the additional 30HP is nothing. Even with stock chips, all you need is a different boost controller (or even one of those check valve setups that go inline right after the banjo bolt) will not only easily get you the 30HP, but will really wake the turbo up down low.

The bigger difference is the larger front brakes and the stiffer rear torsion bars (25.5mm vs 23.5mm). The larger torsion bars get rid of quite a bit of the squat.

There are quite a few other things that set the turbo S and the '89+ cars apart from the earlier and non-turbo S cars... and if you were intending to keep the turbo S (or 89+ 951) stock, then I'd say go for it.

But if you intend to upgrade your suspension and brakes, then I'd say don't bother. Your upgraded suspension and brakes would be far better that what comes on the turbo S stock, thus the premium for the turbo S would be meaningless.

TonyG

nynor · 11-03-2007, 05:30 PM

i have to agree with the guys regarding suspension upgrades. i put some koni adjustable struts on mine, along with some sport bilsteins (still looking for some good rear koni's). just that modification made all the difference when autocrossing. i have yet to do any performance mods, outside of what was on the car when i got it: a ported head and O-ringed cylinder head. boost is stock.

2Tight · 07:39 PM

You have to admit that the $$/HP potential of the 86-89 951 engine/drive train has to be one of the biggest bangs for your buck in todays market. A set of chips and a funky shim tacks on a safe 40-50 hp. That's probably why so many of us love them...warts and all. I can't imagine a better car for what I'm looking for in a weekend hard driving car with power, handling, and style. Sorry, but I do love these cars!

And yes, suspension is always the first investment for me if needed. All the power in the world is useless if you can't use it all.

924RACR · 11-04-2007, 04:30 AM

Having driven my friend's 951S around these roads, I can't imagine wanting the S suspension for anything but track use - between the rates, damping, and tires, it just seems obscenely harsh unless you head out west to where they can afford decent pavement...

Colt45 · 11-04-2007, 05:36 AM

I started with an 86 Turbo (non LSD, std suspension, brakes, no chips) and moved into an 88 Turbo S (Silver Rose Stock). I can honestly say that the Turbo S is a significant step up- allow me to elaborate:

+You get the uprated turbo- it has more lag, but the power is VERY noticeable- I now have chips and its no longer a fair comparison. Oh, and Natrium cooled exhaust valves.
+The M030 suspension is ridiculous- you get height and rebound adjustable koni yellows!! No to mention the thicker sway bars, stiffer springs and bigger torsion bars!
+Then add a monstrosity of a front brake system from the 928S4- this is by far the best part!! If you decide to go bigger, you already have the right hubs/spindles.
+You get an uprated LSD (thicker friction plates)
+Hardened first & second gear for additional longevity
+Uprated clutch pack (additional damping capabilties= smoother engagement)
+Additional chassis reinforcement for added stiffness- not to mention additional crash safety as the front end is now built like a tank.
+Fenders have also been rolled to allow for larger wheel/tire combos

I definately wouldnt try to tell you what decision to make, as you have a car you are happy with... but.... If I were going to modify the hell out of the car, I would stay with the standard Turbo cars as there is no point to get a Turbo S since you will pay extra for the "intermediate" upgrades that you will be replacing. That being said, the cars are noticeably different and I would not discount them as being the same with the addition of a chip.

CJFusco · CJFusco's Garage

I'll chime in here.

When I bought my 951, i was *slightly* disappointed in how late the turbo spooled. Sure, the car was light-years faster than my 944NA, but it seemed like there was a lot of "where the hell is the boosssssssOHTHEREITIS!"

I invested in some modest modifications - 951Max chip, Lindsey Boost enhancer (also acts as a de facto controller), 3.0 FPR (so i don't blow a head gasket), heavier-duty BOV (busted the original). With probably no more than $600 invested, my 951 has been transformed to a car that is fast on boost - once the boost FINALLY arrives - to a rocket. The boost comes on much quicker thanks to the LBE, and the fuel/air management thanks to Russel Barry's chip has made a huge difference.

I say keep your car and make it faster than a Turbo S with a few choice investments.

CJFusco · CJFusco's Garage

Oh and BTW - once I get the Volvo back on the roads (the next couple weeks - I have a new tranny for it sitting in my garage as of thursday) and the Porsche in the garage.... suspension mods are next!

myskyon · 11-04-2007, 08:08 AM

i would say keep the non "S" and give it a few mods to it seems the allmost perfict mod setup is this: LR stage 2 MAF with mafterbunner, 951 MAX chips, evomotorsports Bypass valve (LR sell this as the billit one), plug wires, 3bar FPR, 3"downpipe back exhaust, Venturi delete, Electronic boost controller ( deleteing th CV valve), and all new Vacume lines, and Hard pipes with no swedge. that will get you more than you think for power and for suspention i would get koni adjustable shocks and struts all the way around.