Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 924/944/968 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Born2bwild1191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Latrobe, PA
Posts: 407
Porsche Crest Installing Headers in 87 924S

I'm thinking about buying headers in the spring and I have a couple questions. First of all, is ceramic coating worth getting? secondly, is installing Headers a job that can be done by someone who is not a professional mechanic? I mean i know what I'm doing, but the last thing I need is to break a stud on the block . If anyone has any info on what is involved for an install or a link just to let me know how difficult this job is, I'd appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
__________________
'87 Guards Red 924S - First Porsche - SOLD 5/21/10
'67 Red VW Beetle - Restored by me and my dad, 2115cc motor.
'87 951 - Silver/blk, full leather interior - LR Chips - 3 bar FPR - LBE
'92 Ford F150 - Winter truck
'04 Yamaha R6
Old 12-30-2008, 04:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 703
With some good Headers you might make 5hp more. I get mine Coated cause it cuts down on heat on engine. Paid about $200 for coatings. But I would not mess with either unless you're racing. You get about the same power boost by removing the powersteering belt/AC.

It's kinda of a PITA cause the nuts are always rusted and difficult to reached without several types of 13mm universal wrenches. Then sliping the Header on/off a head in the engine takes a little monkey grease to get around the engine compartment. Doubt you could hurt anything. WD40 the bolts the day before to lossen up. You'll also have to drop the exhuast from the mounts under the car which is also a bit of work, before you can start on header. Ie front end must be well jacked to reached.
__________________
1987 924S with 968 Drive front to back, Bilstein Insert on mod/stock Struts, 450# Hypercoils, 28mm Torsion Bars, Weltmeister Adjustable Sway Bars, Lindsey 968 Light flywheel, Spec Stage II Clutch, ToYO RA1's, Auto Power Cage & 6 pt Harness, KLA Strut Brace, Greasy hands, heavy foot, and lots of smiles
Old 12-30-2008, 04:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
That Guy
 
Techno Duck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 4,841
Garage
I have taken the headers out without removing the cylinder head, but its a bit of work. I had to remove all of the studs before i was able to pull the headers out, this involved the double nut method to back the studs out. This is a risky process because the studs can break in the head, there is no way to really get penetrating oil on them because of the angle they are at. The 6 bolts at the lower flange are also a bare to get out if they have never been removed before.

Its do-able, but at the risk of a stud breaking into the head. If that happens, you will need a right angle drill and alot of luck to drill out the broken stud (i looked into doing this on my 951 with a broken stud...ended up pulling the head). If you cant drill the stud out, your looking at a headgasket job.

Personally i think its going to be alot more trouble than its worth.
__________________
Jon
1988 Granite Green 911 3.4L
2005 Arctic Silver 996 GT3
Past worth mentioning - 1987 924S, 1987 944, 1988 944T with 5.7L LS1
Old 12-30-2008, 04:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
meister member
 
speedracing944's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Evansville, Wisconsin
Posts: 3,347
Garage
I tried to pull the stock exhaust manifold off with the engine in but couldn't get it. I didn't try removing the studs though but either way it is going to be a PITA. Since I am putting my new engine in soon I will be installing the 4 into 1 tube header which came off the donor car. Instead of a coating I am going to wrap the header with header wrap.

Speedy
__________________
1983 944 guards red with 16" Fuchs, Host of Wisconsin area timing/ balance shaft belt tensioning party
1987 944S Purchased from Legion. Corvette LT-1 V-8 conversion with Mega Squirt II
Check on progress ---> www.porschehybrids.com/gallery/speedracing944
Favorite Road = www.tailofthedragon.com 318 turns in 11 miles (11 min 20 sec best run)
Old 12-30-2008, 08:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Born2bwild1191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Latrobe, PA
Posts: 407
Thanks for all your replies guys. maybe i should mark headers off of the wishlist....didn't realize it was going to be THAT difficult...If i were to pay someone to do it, any idea on a very rough estimate of how much it would cost?
__________________
'87 Guards Red 924S - First Porsche - SOLD 5/21/10
'67 Red VW Beetle - Restored by me and my dad, 2115cc motor.
'87 951 - Silver/blk, full leather interior - LR Chips - 3 bar FPR - LBE
'92 Ford F150 - Winter truck
'04 Yamaha R6
Old 12-31-2008, 11:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
fast924S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: New Haven, CT
Posts: 3,347
Garage
Send a message via AIM to fast924S
I got my old ones of and the new ones on with the engine in and studs in, Just gotta have the car jacked high and play around with it. Average home garage guy should be able to do it maybe half a day taking your time.
__________________
1986 951, Stock for now.
]87 924S Gaurds red- SOLD after 11 years of ownership
Old 12-31-2008, 12:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Redline Racer
 
HondaDustR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,436
First pick up some PB'laster penetrating spray at any auto parts store. It's alot better than WD40. I actually found mine at Wal Mart. Soak the bolts REALY good every day for at least 2 or 3 days for maximum effectiveness. They aren't impossible to get off, but are definitely a PITA if things are really rusted. Make sure to use good fitting quality tools, and DO NOT use any 12 point sockets or wrenches, since avoiding rounding off the bolts in the first place is the most important in making it a tolerable job. I had good luck hammering a 1/2 in open end wrench (or socket, depending on which nut it was) on the badly stuck ones. It's slightly smaller than the 13mm, and the super tight fit will usually guarantee that the wrench will probably break before the bolt rounds off...and I didn't actually break any wrenches when I did it. Just work slowly when it starts comming loose. If it binds, just work it back and forth, soaking in penetratring oil to help loosen the rust on the threads. Don't just crank it out, or you'll be sorry. This is especially important if the stud is the first thing to loosen since you don't want to tear out the threads in the head. You just need a lot of patience and nowhere to go for a day. When I did mine, the studs weren't stuck at all in the head, although some of the nuts were rusted pretty good to the studs. The real nightmare is the y-pipe flange bolts, since they are really hard to get to, especially if you need to cut them off. Mine were absolutely miserable, since they were practically welded into the headers with rust, but I have the old cast headers and I only sprayed them down with PB once and it only sat one night. I ended up twisting most of the bolt heads off and having to drill/dremel the remains out.
It would be a good idea to just replace the studs and nuts while it's apart, and use lots of anti-seize compound at re-assembly.

Exhaust work sucks...and which way do the manifold gaskets go?

You'll probably be able to gain a little more clearance to remove/install the headers by gently jacking the engine up to relieve pressure from the engine mounts. Another 1/2 inch would definitely help.
At least for removing the stock headers, I've found that just removing the 1-4 header from both the head and the y-pipe allows the entire exhaust system with the 2-3 header still attatched to be removed. This will make tackling the y-pipe bolts on the 2-3 header much easier. This reqires enough clearance under the car for it to work, but a good set of jackstands, or in my case, some drive up ramp stands under the rear with a floor jack under the front crossmember would work fine.
__________________
1987 silver 924S 210k mi! - Rebuilt motor survived 60K so far. Bottom end balanced, Custom mild ported head, Port matched intake, LR 944MAX chip, Thush Welded muffler, Bilstein shocks, MSD Blaster 2 coil, ect ect...Needs 8 more valves!
2003 Hyundai Tiburon GT 2.7 V6 24V DOHC- New toy/backup plan...Borla cat back, Injen intake. Needs headers and a real set of cams.
Old 12-31-2008, 02:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: va
Posts: 2,120
Garage
Angry

Hi,
I am replacing a cracked steel 1-4 pipe with a full set of cast iron I bought from a pelican member. It sounds like I could just drop out the 1-4 header without removing the 2-3 at all? If I only had a 1-4 in steel. Any leads?

There is a socket for stud removal I am going to have my mechanic try. Here is the link to the tool. I think this it is the correct size.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00996461000P?vName=Tools&cName=MechanicsTools&sName=Automotive%20Specialty%20Tools&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 01-01-2009, 05:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Comeau Racing
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,478
Guys,.......

Slow down for a moment....way too much work being described here. No need to remove the top header (exhaust manifold) studs. No need to drill out broken studs.
East coast rusty cars may need some PB blaster, yes. We call it Weasel piss!(thanks JIVEN) Good product.
First, don't mix cast iron headers and stainless tubular headers. Factory manual says it's a no-no.

3 generations of 944/924S headers:

1. cast iron- 20lbs/set,
2. early stainless tubulars-7 lbs/set,
3. late stainless tubulars- 7lbs/set.

The late stainless are double jacketed from the crotch to the base to help prevent cracks that occur in the 1-4 pipe at the crotch. The early stainless have a 1-4 pipe crotch support welded in.

Don't be afraid to rock the engine up on the pass. side engine mount using a crow bar. This is the key to skipping the head stud removal task because it gives you the room to slide the headers off the studs. Made easier if it's a 2-man thing. Just protect what you're prying against.
The header nuts should be 13mm, but I've seen more than a few 12mm used there. Just be ready for it. You'll need a good universal and short socket to get some of the nuts off at the top and bottom of the headers. A wrench may require alot of spinning, but sometimes that's all that will fit. If you start sliding the headers off as you're removing the most hidden nuts, you'll have more room to work with the nut. Of course, this requires the bottom of the headers to be loose first, so do the bottom bolts first.
No need to remove the header studs, but if one backs out with the nut, no prob. Just put it back in that same location when installing. So 8 nuts and washers off the top of the headers, 6 nuts and bolts, washers off the base of the headers at the start of the collector/cat pipe. Don't let the collector pipe/cat section hang on the O2 sensor wires! I put a small jack stand under that section after unattaching it from the hanger. Get the pass. engine mount heat shield out of the way by removing the two 6mm bolts(10mm head).
The late headers are smaller and can come out the top way if you loosen the water pipe that goes to the heater core. The cast iron headers are bigger and I've had to remove them out the bottom and as a pair. It's really hard, if not impossible, to get the cast iron headers out individually, or in individually. Again, don't be afraid to rock the passenger side of the engine up on the engine mount, using a crowbar, in order to get more room to slide/pry the headers on/off the head. Little dab of grease on the manifold gaskets will hold them in place on reassembly. Stand by for some smoke as the headers cook themselves clean when you start up the engine.
__________________
PCA since 1985
77 924 MARTINI Edition rescued,SOLD
88 924S Special Edition rescued,SOLD
Comeau Racing Enterprises, Inc. www.comeauracing.com
We do only 924S, 944's, 968's all day, every day.

Last edited by Timmay!; 01-01-2009 at 09:37 AM..
Old 01-01-2009, 09:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: va
Posts: 2,120
Garage
Thanks for all the info. I have about a one-inch crack in the crotch of the 1-4 pipe in a late 85 NA. What do you recommend I do? I already have a set of cast pipes on the way. Should I use these, or try to find an older 1-4 pipe, or try to weld the one I have, or something else?

Thanks!
Old 01-01-2009, 09:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Comeau Racing
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,478
Don't bother welding the tubular header. It'll crack again. The cast iron headers are heavier, but they last. I've heard they can crack, but I've never actually seen a cracked cast iron header. The late tubulars last well too.
I use the cast iron or late tubulars on our company's enduro 944's and 924S's.
__________________
PCA since 1985
77 924 MARTINI Edition rescued,SOLD
88 924S Special Edition rescued,SOLD
Comeau Racing Enterprises, Inc. www.comeauracing.com
We do only 924S, 944's, 968's all day, every day.
Old 01-01-2009, 10:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Morrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,388
I have some white marks on one of the lower pipes that makes me wonder if there is a crack on the pipe above but they appear to be cast iron to me. Its a pretty much bone stock 87 924S... would those have been cast iron?

Morrie
__________________
68 912 Coupe, 76 914 2.0 backdated, 04 BMW 330Ci Cab, 08 Acura MDX "Porsche Support Vehicle"
Gone but remembered- 76 911S SR Coupe "The Clown Car", 89 944S2 SR Coupe, 76 912E "Green Rat", 67 912 outlaw, 68 912 Coupe, 87 924S, 02 Ford Explorer - you served us well!
Old 01-02-2009, 07:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Comeau Racing
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,478
Not sure what the 924S can with because it came out when a number of things changed.
auto belt tensioner.
improved oil pan.

You can't miss the cast iron headers. They have a very rough surface that appears to be sand cast, and they are thick as hell.
__________________
PCA since 1985
77 924 MARTINI Edition rescued,SOLD
88 924S Special Edition rescued,SOLD
Comeau Racing Enterprises, Inc. www.comeauracing.com
We do only 924S, 944's, 968's all day, every day.
Old 01-02-2009, 08:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Redline Racer
 
HondaDustR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,436
My 87 has cast headers. Look for weld joints. The cast ones are one piece and the steel ones are welded.

Cast headers:




Steel headers:

__________________
1987 silver 924S 210k mi! - Rebuilt motor survived 60K so far. Bottom end balanced, Custom mild ported head, Port matched intake, LR 944MAX chip, Thush Welded muffler, Bilstein shocks, MSD Blaster 2 coil, ect ect...Needs 8 more valves!
2003 Hyundai Tiburon GT 2.7 V6 24V DOHC- New toy/backup plan...Borla cat back, Injen intake. Needs headers and a real set of cams.
Old 01-03-2009, 10:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Morrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,388
Mine are without a doubt cast. I wonder if they are cracked. It sure is a pain to take a look!

MorriE
__________________
68 912 Coupe, 76 914 2.0 backdated, 04 BMW 330Ci Cab, 08 Acura MDX "Porsche Support Vehicle"
Gone but remembered- 76 911S SR Coupe "The Clown Car", 89 944S2 SR Coupe, 76 912E "Green Rat", 67 912 outlaw, 68 912 Coupe, 87 924S, 02 Ford Explorer - you served us well!
Old 01-03-2009, 05:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
thekidd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Warrington, PA
Posts: 1,347
Send a message via AIM to thekidd
Nobody mentioned Clarks? look at my signature for the site. Garage shoppe manuel.

Just looked for the walkdown for removing the headers, there is none!?!
__________________
Steve- If you havent looked, look- www.clarks-garage.com
87 951 red- Maria (current)
84 944 white- Percilla (current DD)
85.5 944 red- Pinta (past)
87 924S red- Nina (past)

Last edited by thekidd; 01-03-2009 at 10:15 PM..
Old 01-03-2009, 10:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Born2bwild1191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Latrobe, PA
Posts: 407
I checked Clarks before posting. I've used it many times before and was shocked to see that this wasn't on there. Thats why i ended up posting on here
__________________
'87 Guards Red 924S - First Porsche - SOLD 5/21/10
'67 Red VW Beetle - Restored by me and my dad, 2115cc motor.
'87 951 - Silver/blk, full leather interior - LR Chips - 3 bar FPR - LBE
'92 Ford F150 - Winter truck
'04 Yamaha R6
Old 01-04-2009, 10:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:00 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.