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My new 944 and the reference sensor dillema need some advice from the Porsche guru's
Hello everybody, first of all i would like to thank all of you for posting all your problems, this board is awesome and I've been doing so much reading my eyes are starting to bleed. Anyways here's my story as a new 944 owner, i purchased the car from someone that had it sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years the person had the car as a project but also has a widebody targa, regular targa and a 924 not including 3 other non porsche cars he's working on well the car was kinda taken apartish and was super dirty but it was love at first sight and since I'm a compulsive auto shopper if i stare at a car long enough i'll like it, anyways i towed the car home put the ps and alt belt new tires on the 15" bbs honeycomb wheels which i think fit the car very well and a new battery, now here's the bad every time i had started the car in the past it would start right up and idle nicely for a car that had only been started to get the fluids flowing, well i decided to drive the car over to a friends house to get the interior detailed and about 7 miles into the drive i get to a light and as I'm starting off the light the car stalls on me and I'm like of maybe i let the clutch out too soon so i try starting the car and nothing I'm like crap i prob didn't put enough gas in the car so my friend that was driving behind me got some more gas and nothing so we pushed the car to a parking space on the side of the road and i start looking around but it was getting dark so i left the car there, the next morning i started the car and it started I'm like yessss but i was driving my other car so i went to take it home and when i go back to drive the 944 with a friend it wouldn't start i checked and i had no spark so i'm like the ignition coil prob went so i talk to the guy that i got the car from and he lent me the ignition coil off the 924 and still no spark so i go to check the sensors speed/ reff and and as i unplugged them from the connector at the top the plastic wire insulator crumpled in my hand and left he wires exposed so i'm guessing the sensors where not so good so again i call the guy up and he lends me the sensors from the 924 now the problem is removing the sensors from my car they are stuck there good i sprayed lots of WD40 and let it sit overnight and they barely budge ive read they get stuck but haven't really found a way of removing them without taking off the bell housing so does anyone have any tricks on how to get them out i don't want to break anything i don't have to fixing up this car is not gonna be cheap and my other car is already burning a hole in my pocket any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the super long post. keep up the good work everyone this place is my new home page SmileWavy
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WOW all that and only one period at the end of a sentence!
To pull the reference sensors you need to twist them while pulling straight up. Wiggle them back and forth. Spray them once in a while. Once you are able to pull it up a little bit, push them back down and up repeatedly while twisting. Eventually they will come out. Don't break them as I think they are expensive. When you crank the car does the tach bounce? Speedy:) |
h8tr_
"Hello ..............................."I can barely keep my eyes open ;) .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................." good so again i call the guy up and he lends me the sensors from the 924 now the problem is removing the sensors from my car they are stuck there good i sprayed lots of WD40 and let it sit overnight and they barely budge ive read they get stuck but haven't really found a way of removing them without taking off the bell housing so does anyone have any tricks on how to get them out i don't want to break anything i don't have to fixing up this car is not gonna be cheap and my other car is already burning a hole in my pocket any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the super long post. keep up the good work everyone this place is my new home page. h8tr_ I enjoyed the information, really! It is often easier to look at the sensors with a picture because it is really hard to get at. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1234569399.jpg Try using something stronger than WD 40--PB Blaster is good. Do not pull on the cord! The trick is to let the PB Blaster work overnight and gently keep twisting with an upward motion. There is an "O" ring around the sensor that has dried out. If after all fails, you will have to take off the sensor mounting. It is held by the 2 tiny pan head bolts-6 or 8 mm allen wrench. The bolts are only torqued to 6 ft pounds or less. Get a socket with the allen wrench screwed in with a setscrew or cut off a piece and use a 1/4 inch metric socket with the allen piece. Crawl on top of the engine and bleed a couple of knuckles. If this does not work to get the pan head bolts out, use a very long needle nose vice grips to break the bond of the pan head bolt. Do not grip the sensor with a locking vice grips to try to pull out. You will distroy the sensor. If you do ruin a sensor, let us know and get a BMW interchange for half price. Now, remember, upward gentle force on sensor while you twist. Good luck and welcome. John_AZ 1988 924S + 1987 924S |
Be careful if you remove the sensor mounting bracket as the clearance of the sensors is set by this bracket and you will have to reset it which can be a big PITA.
Speedy:) |
Good point by Speedy,
Resetting is found in www.Clarks-Garage.com I forgot something very IMPORTANT!!!! COVER the bell housing TIMIMG MARK HOLE COVER the bell housing TIMING MARK HOLE Use HD duct tape or stuff a rag in the opening. If you drop anything down, the WHOLE clutch has to come out. John_AZ |
lol yea i know my grammar sucks, i try to drop a period here and there but i forget. anyways well now that the car doesn't start the tach doesn't bounce when i crank, i don't really care if the sensors break because the connectors literally crumbled when unplugged them so i have to replace them now anyways, i don't want to damage something else in the process luckily this guy is letting me pick parts off the 928 till i figure out whats wrong with the car. It really sucks i only had the pleasure of driving the car about 5 miles can wait to get her running again its a sad beginning.
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Don't be so fast. The connectors can be replaced. Try to work out the sensors as mentioned. Interchange sensors go for about $50 each, New OEM about $140 each.
John_AZ |
Thanks for the tip John_AZ I'll try the pb blaster tomorrow, and i definitely need new sensors the ones I'm putting in are just borrowed i have to give them back after i try them out, i really hope it doesn't go past it being a bad sensor, funny you mention covering the hole i almost dropped something in there today and i think my heart skipped a beat but then i looked under the car and it was on the floor I'm gonna have to do the clutch soon so i hope the procedure isn't that bad.
oh and speedracing944 i'll try not to mess around with the bracket i'm not mentally there yet i still have hope on the sensors :rolleyes: |
oh yea forgot, so where can i get these bmw sensors for 1/2 the price i hear so much of, i definitely don't want to shell out that kind of money for the oem ones
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h8tr_
Here is a Xref Bosch and I will look further for BMW Xref. http://www.*****************.com/Reference_Sensor_p/0.261.210.002.htm John_AZ |
BMW Reference & Speed Sensors
I used the following from Pelican's BMW section;
12-14-1-708-619-M14 They worked perfectly. |
After 20+ years and no real issues with the reference or speed sensors, I decided to change them while doing ahead job. I did the pb blaster thing over a couple of nights to no avail. If they break (as mine did) don't be discourage and have lots of patience. Just remove the block and reset using a washer (of the proper thickness) glued to the bottom of one of the old sensors. Don't remember if that was noted in the workshop manual or Clarks Garage, but I read it somewhere.
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h8tr_
Additional Xref: http://members.cox.net/dnwong/porscheref.htm OR http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/297421-parts-cross-reference.html Another good site-----move to bottom of index on left: http://www.the944.com/ John_AZ |
hello everybody, well I've been kinda busy the past few days but i continued the battle with the sensors although i was very careful one of the sensors broke with barely any force it just cracked so now i have to remove the sensor bracket which i tried yesterday but was only able to get one bolt out the bottom one is close to impossible to remove, i cant get anything in there to remove it I've tried allen keys but there is no space to move these around in there and i cant get the socket wrench to fit in with the socket that has the allen tip:mad::mad::mad:, and yes there has been blood, I'll post a pic of how bad the sensor is as soon as my cameras batt is done charging.
John_AZ any tricks on getting the mounting bracket off, it seems from the pic you posted taking the whole thing down seems the easier alternate but that's my an option for me right now |
www.************ is where I got mine. Part #:0 261 210 002
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h8tr_
If your hex socket is too big, have you made one with a 1/4 in. drive socket by cutting the hex (to a length just necessary to fit in the pan head bolt + 1/8") and using a 6mm 1/4" socket? Bottom shows 3/8"socket/hex/setscrew, middle shows 1/4" socket and cut hex to size. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1234976164.jpg Either way the access from the top is horrible. Option 1. I was able to crawl on the top of the engine, after removing or moving as many of the hoses and wires by the oil fill and sensor bracket....use my left arm to wrap around the top of the clutch bell housing and use a 1/4 socket wrench and hex to get to the bolt. It is possible because you will need to reset the sensors and have to find a way to torque the pan head screws now or at some time in the future. Option 2. I would try to get access from underneath to get to the lower sensor bracket bolt. This involves using the hex socket with a universal attached to at least 2 feet of extensions to get below the TT. If this is impossible. Before you tear out the clutch and bell housing-at least 2 or days for first timer to remove & replace..... Option 3. Think about taking the intake manifold off to get better access. While this may seem like the second best idea, you should be able to work the bolt out from the top... AND have the experience of taking care of all the hoses under the intake including the AOS seals, cleaning and resealing the injectors, replacing cracked hoses, cleaning the ICV/ISV, new clamps, heater control valve, new "J" boot-maybe, and all vacuume hoses and connectors. Cleaning batt grounds and a polish completes the task :). GL John_AZ |
I just went thru this exact thing. After trying to get the bolts out, and drilling the sensor for a while with a flexible shaft...........I went and got a sharp chisel and broke the bracket out, cutting it just above the drivers side bolt. Done, after all that time. Got a bracket from APart Above in Strongsville Ohio from John. $25.00. When I spaced the sensors, I used rubber cement to glue a double thickness of matchbook to the end, and set it in the hole. Crank engine, matchbook disintegrates.
do it now, or do it later. Replaced all bolts with hex head metric new and anti seize.;) |
i just used vice grips to get the bolts out. and I found a pair of vice grips with a 1 foot extension in the middle at harbor freight.
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Quote:
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well it seems like everyday I go a step further I run into more surprises, well the update today is i managed to get the other bolt out i climbed on top of the engine and somehow i did it and somewhere in the process now I'm bruised up to my elbows but i did it:D, now the new issue is that since the speed sensor broke in the bracket i cant take out the bracket so my question is do i have to cut the bracket where the "thingy" from the bracket goes into the engine where the lower bolt is located or is there a way to pull out the bracket without cutting anything, is this what u guys meant by cutting the bracket out, this sure has been an experience for me i guess its just a taste of whats to come. thanks
oh here's the pic of the speed sensor that broke off http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...x/IMG_1537.jpg |
Well done!!
If I understand your painful experience, you have removed 2 pan hed (hex) bolts from the sensor. You have also taken one sensor out intact and the other is in the picture. If this is true, the sensor bracket should come out. I do not have a picture to explain, so words will have to do. The sensor needs to be pryed away from the block about a 1/4 inch to clear a fulcrum/tube it pivots on along with the drivers side screw you just removed. OK, block, fulcrum/tube,bracket and screw goes inside the hole where the fulcrum is. Anyway, wiggle the sensor bracket up and down as if you were going to set the gap, and then use a screwdriver to pry the bracket away from the block. This should work with the broken piece in. Gentley. GL John_AZ |
ok, heres the other thing that happened to me in my sensor removal escapade. After I chiseled the bracket in half, after breaking out the rearmost sensor, reference), and not being able to get the drivers side bolt out of the bracket......( id did this chiseling because some peeps on the board said I would have metal fragments/ wires on the flywheel if I totally destroyed the sensor)
i discovered that....., there is a small extension or a pivot, or ferrule, (as mentioned above) that means you must pry the bracket rearwards about 1/4 inch ) to get the bracket out.... of course, both mounting bolts must be out of the block. After John sent me the new bracket, and I polished it all up shiny on the outside, and smoothy on the insides where the new sensors slide in.......I found that there is a small aluminum sleeve that surrounds the sensor distal to the rubber seal...... which sensor has this aluminum tube extension.....well, my old one had it on the reference sensor, the rear one, and that appears to be why it would not slide out for me, rusty inside the aluminum tube extension. the one I got from John had the aluminum tube on the forwardmost bracket hole. I ended up having to cut off the aluminum extension ,with hacksaw, that extended to the flywheel in order to "clear" the pivot ferrule on the block . The bracket would not go down into the hole, and then onto the ferrule without hammering it in, which would mishape the aluminum tube that the frontmost sensor later slides into. (thats why I had to polish the insides of the aluminum tube, someone had tried to force it in before, by the marks on it) It works, but I think that there may be different sensor brackets out there. I saw no real reason for the aluminum extension tube in either position, other than maybe shielding the sensor shaft from the elements in the housing. |
You cannot see this pivot, but it is inside and alongside the lower of the two bracket mounting bolts in the picture posted by JohnAZ on the previous page. It slides into the bracket, and then surrounds the bolt itself.
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Inspect it when you get it apart, and you will see that the two bracket mounting holes (one is oblong and bigger =the pivot, and one is round= the tightener downer)) are actually two different sizes to accomodate this pivot sleeve.
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
*sigh* i needed that well i just came back from taking a look and the "thingy" that i was referring to is the "fulcrum/tube" i thought it was part of the bracket but turns out its part of the block well now I'm wondering can i just cut a little piece of of it so i can slide the bracket up or is that going to be a bad thing if i do, the speed sensor is broken and stuck in there for good so it inst coming out, I'm going to try pry and wiggle method John_AZ is talking about but if cutting it doesn't damage anything important it would be my next option if the pry and wiggle doesn't work. I bought this little saw thats just itching to cut something up;) http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...x/IMG_1543.jpg Thanks everyone for all the help and info, i think i would've rolled the car off a bridge by now |
i would pry it out carefully, and if you hurt the fulcrumb part, just replace it with a bolt that has a collar on it, or just a small sleeve slid over the new bolt. OR USE THE CHISEL!! LOL, THE HUMAN ALWAYS WINS!!
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IT IS ONLY ABOUT 1/4 INCH LONG, SO YOU CAN PROBABLY FORCE THE SENSOR AND BRACKET PAST IT. go ahead, if you bend it, you can round it out with a punch, or cut it off and use a collared bolt or sleeve. Once it is off the car, a smile will cross your face.
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dont forget that there are 3 sensors in that bracket on mine, andother one is farther down toward the drivers side, try to remove it before destroying it as you force the bracket out!!
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Look at John_AZ pix again, and you can see the other sensor. I think that that one senses that you are trying to work on the car, and accelerates the self destruction mode on the DME computer.LOL
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Never send a small hacksaw to do a large cold chisels job!
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I'm gonna try that now, my concern was that part of the bottom of the sensor would break and drop down, then i would have to dismantle everything so i'm being as careful as possible. I'll keep you guys posted when i return i should either have some good or bad news
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The chisel is used in the same plane as the bolt shaft, it must be sharp, and use a large balpein hammer, and eye protection. The aluminum is soft, to it splits a little, then cracks int large pieces. You won't break it into small pieces, just chunks, finish it off with controlled demolition of a large screwdriver.
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There he goes, driving around the block!!!! great work!!
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ok so as of right now I'm in a lot of pain first was my pinky finger on my right hand then some other area of my left hand and still the bracket sits in place i tried the wiggle and pry, and the chisel between the block and bracket to put some pressure on it and nothing, I'm going to cut the stupid :mad:fulcrum/tube:mad:.
John_AZ i tried gently and not so gently:( |
mine still had a bolt in it when i cut it with the chisel. i cut it just to the left (as you lay from the front of the car towards the cowl) of center of the right bolt, it is the thinnest there, i did not wat to mess up the block area, so i carefully placed the chisel across the bracket and split it, top of the bolt hole, then bottom of the bolt hole. did you get that third sensor out fiirst?
collect the cuttings so they do not end up on the flywheel, or you have to clean all that out. when you get a sensor out, use it as a magnet and realize how much metal could screw up your .8mm gap if it collects on the sensor! it doesnt take much as it stacks up on the magnetic sensor. i think you could use boltcutters on the bracket too. anyway. get that sucker out. heading home to work on the bike. hear from you this weekend, we all hope!:D |
ps, leather gloves are recommended when using hammers and chisels, and other sharp man toys. safety goggles!!
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If you cut the fulcrum how do you plan to set the gap? TIME OUT. Wait until tomorrow and sleep on it. Does it pivot at all up and down to normally set the gap? There has to be some movement...
The saw and chisel are your last desperate measure. I hope you stopped in time. John_AZ |
well John_AZ i only plan to cut a little piece off the tube not the whole thing so I'll still be able to set the gap once i get everything back in, I'm all out of ideas and i don't want to break the bracket because I'll have to look for another one and that's just something thats not in my plans hopefully tomorrow when i go at it again it will slide right out and i wont have to do any cutting
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h8tr_
Here are more pictures to give you a new perspective from www.Clarks-Garge.com: http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/ign-02.htm The fulcrum is really called-----the tensioning sleeve and is available as well as the bracket: http://dcauto.gotdns.com/illustration/index/203490748 GL John_AZ |
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