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My new 944 and the reference sensor dillema need some advice from the Porsche guru's

Hello everybody, first of all i would like to thank all of you for posting all your problems, this board is awesome and I've been doing so much reading my eyes are starting to bleed. Anyways here's my story as a new 944 owner, i purchased the car from someone that had it sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years the person had the car as a project but also has a widebody targa, regular targa and a 924 not including 3 other non porsche cars he's working on well the car was kinda taken apartish and was super dirty but it was love at first sight and since I'm a compulsive auto shopper if i stare at a car long enough i'll like it, anyways i towed the car home put the ps and alt belt new tires on the 15" bbs honeycomb wheels which i think fit the car very well and a new battery, now here's the bad every time i had started the car in the past it would start right up and idle nicely for a car that had only been started to get the fluids flowing, well i decided to drive the car over to a friends house to get the interior detailed and about 7 miles into the drive i get to a light and as I'm starting off the light the car stalls on me and I'm like of maybe i let the clutch out too soon so i try starting the car and nothing I'm like crap i prob didn't put enough gas in the car so my friend that was driving behind me got some more gas and nothing so we pushed the car to a parking space on the side of the road and i start looking around but it was getting dark so i left the car there, the next morning i started the car and it started I'm like yessss but i was driving my other car so i went to take it home and when i go back to drive the 944 with a friend it wouldn't start i checked and i had no spark so i'm like the ignition coil prob went so i talk to the guy that i got the car from and he lent me the ignition coil off the 924 and still no spark so i go to check the sensors speed/ reff and and as i unplugged them from the connector at the top the plastic wire insulator crumpled in my hand and left he wires exposed so i'm guessing the sensors where not so good so again i call the guy up and he lends me the sensors from the 924 now the problem is removing the sensors from my car they are stuck there good i sprayed lots of WD40 and let it sit overnight and they barely budge ive read they get stuck but haven't really found a way of removing them without taking off the bell housing so does anyone have any tricks on how to get them out i don't want to break anything i don't have to fixing up this car is not gonna be cheap and my other car is already burning a hole in my pocket any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the super long post. keep up the good work everyone this place is my new home page
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:24 PM
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WOW all that and only one period at the end of a sentence!

To pull the reference sensors you need to twist them while pulling straight up. Wiggle them back and forth. Spray them once in a while. Once you are able to pull it up a little bit, push them back down and up repeatedly while twisting. Eventually they will come out. Don't break them as I think they are expensive.

When you crank the car does the tach bounce?

Speedy
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:04 PM
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"Hello ..............................."I can barely keep my eyes open
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................."
good so again i call the guy up and he lends me the sensors from the 924 now the problem is removing the sensors from my car they are stuck there good i sprayed lots of WD40 and let it sit overnight and they barely budge ive read they get stuck but haven't really found a way of removing them without taking off the bell housing so does anyone have any tricks on how to get them out i don't want to break anything i don't have to fixing up this car is not gonna be cheap and my other car is already burning a hole in my pocket any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the super long post. keep up the good work everyone this place is my new home page.

h8tr_

I enjoyed the information, really!
It is often easier to look at the sensors with a picture because it is really hard to get at.



Try using something stronger than WD 40--PB Blaster is good.
Do not pull on the cord! The trick is to let the PB Blaster work overnight and gently keep twisting with an upward motion. There is an "O" ring around the sensor that has dried out.

If after all fails, you will have to take off the sensor mounting. It is held by the 2 tiny pan head bolts-6 or 8 mm allen wrench. The bolts are only torqued to 6 ft pounds or less. Get a socket with the allen wrench screwed in with a setscrew or cut off a piece and use a 1/4 inch metric socket with the allen piece. Crawl on top of the engine and bleed a couple of knuckles. If this does not work to get the pan head bolts out, use a very long needle nose vice grips to break the bond of the pan head bolt.

Do not grip the sensor with a locking vice grips to try to pull out. You will distroy the sensor. If you do ruin a sensor, let us know and get a BMW interchange for half price.

Now, remember, upward gentle force on sensor while you twist.

Good luck and welcome.

John_AZ
1988 924S + 1987 924S
Old 02-13-2009, 03:10 PM
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Be careful if you remove the sensor mounting bracket as the clearance of the sensors is set by this bracket and you will have to reset it which can be a big PITA.

Speedy
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1983 944 guards red with 16" Fuchs, Host of Wisconsin area timing/ balance shaft belt tensioning party
1987 944S Purchased from Legion. Corvette LT-1 V-8 conversion with Mega Squirt II
Check on progress ---> www.porschehybrids.com/gallery/speedracing944
Favorite Road = www.tailofthedragon.com 318 turns in 11 miles (11 min 20 sec best run)
Old 02-13-2009, 03:16 PM
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Good point by Speedy,
Resetting is found in www.Clarks-Garage.com

I forgot something very IMPORTANT!!!!

COVER the bell housing TIMIMG MARK HOLE
COVER the bell housing TIMING MARK HOLE

Use HD duct tape or stuff a rag in the opening. If you drop anything down, the WHOLE clutch has to come out.

John_AZ
Old 02-13-2009, 03:28 PM
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lol yea i know my grammar sucks, i try to drop a period here and there but i forget. anyways well now that the car doesn't start the tach doesn't bounce when i crank, i don't really care if the sensors break because the connectors literally crumbled when unplugged them so i have to replace them now anyways, i don't want to damage something else in the process luckily this guy is letting me pick parts off the 928 till i figure out whats wrong with the car. It really sucks i only had the pleasure of driving the car about 5 miles can wait to get her running again its a sad beginning.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:33 PM
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Don't be so fast. The connectors can be replaced. Try to work out the sensors as mentioned. Interchange sensors go for about $50 each, New OEM about $140 each.

John_AZ
Old 02-13-2009, 03:40 PM
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Thanks for the tip John_AZ I'll try the pb blaster tomorrow, and i definitely need new sensors the ones I'm putting in are just borrowed i have to give them back after i try them out, i really hope it doesn't go past it being a bad sensor, funny you mention covering the hole i almost dropped something in there today and i think my heart skipped a beat but then i looked under the car and it was on the floor I'm gonna have to do the clutch soon so i hope the procedure isn't that bad.

oh and speedracing944 i'll try not to mess around with the bracket i'm not mentally there yet i still have hope on the sensors
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:49 PM
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oh yea forgot, so where can i get these bmw sensors for 1/2 the price i hear so much of, i definitely don't want to shell out that kind of money for the oem ones
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:53 PM
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Here is a Xref Bosch and I will look further for BMW Xref.
http://www.paragon-products.com/Reference_Sensor_p/0.261.210.002.htm

John_AZ
Old 02-13-2009, 04:01 PM
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BMW Reference & Speed Sensors

I used the following from Pelican's BMW section;

12-14-1-708-619-M14

They worked perfectly.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:56 PM
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After 20+ years and no real issues with the reference or speed sensors, I decided to change them while doing ahead job. I did the pb blaster thing over a couple of nights to no avail. If they break (as mine did) don't be discourage and have lots of patience. Just remove the block and reset using a washer (of the proper thickness) glued to the bottom of one of the old sensors. Don't remember if that was noted in the workshop manual or Clarks Garage, but I read it somewhere.
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:03 PM
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Additional Xref:
http://members.cox.net/dnwong/porscheref.htm
OR
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/297421-parts-cross-reference.html

Another good site-----move to bottom of index on left:
http://www.the944.com/

John_AZ
Old 02-14-2009, 04:02 PM
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Angry

hello everybody, well I've been kinda busy the past few days but i continued the battle with the sensors although i was very careful one of the sensors broke with barely any force it just cracked so now i have to remove the sensor bracket which i tried yesterday but was only able to get one bolt out the bottom one is close to impossible to remove, i cant get anything in there to remove it I've tried allen keys but there is no space to move these around in there and i cant get the socket wrench to fit in with the socket that has the allen tip, and yes there has been blood, I'll post a pic of how bad the sensor is as soon as my cameras batt is done charging.

John_AZ any tricks on getting the mounting bracket off, it seems from the pic you posted taking the whole thing down seems the easier alternate but that's my an option for me right now
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:04 AM
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www.************ is where I got mine. Part #:0 261 210 002
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:21 AM
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If your hex socket is too big, have you made one with a 1/4 in. drive socket by cutting the hex (to a length just necessary to fit in the pan head bolt + 1/8") and using a 6mm 1/4" socket? Bottom shows 3/8"socket/hex/setscrew, middle shows 1/4" socket and cut hex to size.




Either way the access from the top is horrible.

Option 1. I was able to crawl on the top of the engine, after removing or moving as many of the hoses and wires by the oil fill and sensor bracket....use my left arm to wrap around the top of the clutch bell housing and use a 1/4 socket wrench and hex to get to the bolt. It is possible because you will need to reset the sensors and have to find a way to torque the pan head screws now or at some time in the future.

Option 2. I would try to get access from underneath to get to the lower sensor bracket bolt. This involves using the hex socket with a universal attached to at least 2 feet of extensions to get below the TT.

If this is impossible. Before you tear out the clutch and bell housing-at least 2 or days for first timer to remove & replace.....

Option 3. Think about taking the intake manifold off to get better access. While this may seem like the second best idea, you should be able to work the bolt out from the top...
AND
have the experience of taking care of all the hoses under the intake including the AOS seals, cleaning and resealing the injectors, replacing cracked hoses, cleaning the ICV/ISV, new clamps, heater control valve, new "J" boot-maybe, and all vacuume hoses and connectors.
Cleaning batt grounds and a polish completes the task .

GL
John_AZ
Old 02-18-2009, 08:00 AM
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I just went thru this exact thing. After trying to get the bolts out, and drilling the sensor for a while with a flexible shaft...........I went and got a sharp chisel and broke the bracket out, cutting it just above the drivers side bolt. Done, after all that time. Got a bracket from APart Above in Strongsville Ohio from John. $25.00. When I spaced the sensors, I used rubber cement to glue a double thickness of matchbook to the end, and set it in the hole. Crank engine, matchbook disintegrates.

do it now, or do it later. Replaced all bolts with hex head metric new and anti seize.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:36 AM
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i just used vice grips to get the bolts out. and I found a pair of vice grips with a 1 foot extension in the middle at harbor freight.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSNAPCRACKLEPOP View Post
I just went thru this exact thing. After trying to get the bolts out, and drilling the sensor for a while with a flexible shaft...........I went and got a sharp chisel and broke the bracket out, cutting it just above the drivers side bolt. Done, after all that time. Got a bracket from APart Above in Strongsville Ohio from John. $25.00. When I spaced the sensors, I used rubber cement to glue a double thickness of matchbook to the end, and set it in the hole. Crank engine, matchbook disintegrates.

do it now, or do it later. Replaced all bolts with hex head metric new and anti seize.
I also used the chisel method, but I spun the hex heads with the chisel and hammer. Believe it or not, Ace Hardware had the exact duplicate bolt. Resetting the proper height of the bracket was done with a washer glued to the bottom of one of the old sensors.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:11 PM
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well it seems like everyday I go a step further I run into more surprises, well the update today is i managed to get the other bolt out i climbed on top of the engine and somehow i did it and somewhere in the process now I'm bruised up to my elbows but i did it, now the new issue is that since the speed sensor broke in the bracket i cant take out the bracket so my question is do i have to cut the bracket where the "thingy" from the bracket goes into the engine where the lower bolt is located or is there a way to pull out the bracket without cutting anything, is this what u guys meant by cutting the bracket out, this sure has been an experience for me i guess its just a taste of whats to come. thanks

oh here's the pic of the speed sensor that broke off
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