To paraphrase Quentin Tarantino, "This car is Deathproof, but you really need to be sitting in the driver seat."

Match the passenger to safety of the driver, it's the right thing to do. A word of advise though...when you register let them know you have a cage and or racing seat and the WIDTH of that seat. I had a rather husky instructor assigned once, he squeezed in but I thought they'd need to call rescue crew to extract him from my 17" seat.

yea but i bet he was real secure in the seat hehe. prob didn't even need the seat belts.

again, i am not suggesting for a minute that it is not the best thing to do to install the good stuff on both sides

all i am saying is that this is NOT racing - this is DRIVER EDUCATION - the point is to teach the driver - far too many people use a DE as if it were a race event, and therein lies the problem

the rule is counter-productive to encouraging more people to learn to drive, which should be the primary goal - a stock seat is not as safe as a good one - stock belts are not as safe as harnesses - a driver flopping around in a stock seat and belts is more likely to lose control of the car at exactly the wrong moment, and injure both he and the instructor, than one who is belted in correctly

absolutely i'd like to see both seats done up right - but if that can't happen, i'd much rather see at least the driver seat right - at least that way i am less likely to get nailed by a squid

I don't know about PCA, but this is from the NASA CCR:

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts
and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other
than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the
expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that
they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder
restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum
requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note passenger
equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.
*Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacturer’s specifications may
be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.

So if you have 5/6 pt harnesses for driver, that means you also have a racing seat and rollbar or cage to fasten harnesses to... therefore you need the same thing for the passenger side.
Equipment doesn't have to match...meaning, like my car, I have a road race seat and a rally seat but both have equal harnesses and anchoring.

Agreed.. but with folks now coming to events in 200-500hp cars, the speeds that can be acheived are so much greater than with an 80hp 914. Given lesser experience and incredible cars, it could stand to reason that ensuring potentially better safety (i have seen no studies published) helps all involved.

Yes it is for teaching.. but how do you teach control (approaching and exceeding a cars performance limit) when the limits are so incredibly high, right off the factory floor?

I don't think the rule is the issue.. The issue is the "consumer" thinks that all the equipment is needed. Its not needed at all. But peer pressure and a little walter mitty feelings conjure up the need that, to learn better and go faster, I must modify my car.

Sometimes, its downright fun to slide around. I went from a full track prepped SC to a bone stock boxster and had a hoot. Sure I had to remember how to "brace" myself, but, well, it was fun.


As for the OP, yes, "equal restraints" is the key. If "you" want a race style seat, assume the instructor does too. You could just keep the stock stuff and not worry about the financial outlay. It is, after all, DE and not racing ;)

944 spec - i think you misread something - while the harnesses for the driver would certainly be attached to the roll bar, there is no requirement that the passenger seat have harnesses or be attached to the roll bar

racer - i understand what you are saying, and don't disagree for a second with the wisdom of choosing to have the gear - i've got it on both sides in my car - all i am saying is that it deters a lot of people from attending that would otherwise become better drivers

as for the fast cars being out there causing problems, this is an organizer problem - they need to break up the run groups so that you don't have a GT2 out there with a miata just as much as you need to break them up so that novices aren't out there with experienced drivers

FIRST, where are you running that a MIATA is on the track with you! Out events in CT are Porsche only, which is nice by keeping the cars fairly even. Not to mention that in low run groups a 944 can pass that GT2.

Overall for safety: Make the driver and pass side the same setup. You will never have issues that way. As far as needing safety gear, what comes in the car stock is fine to learn in. The issue starts when you get into higher run groups and get more g-force when driving (since you get better and faster). The stock seats and belts can only hold you so well. I am changing to race seats and harnesses this winter to help hold me in. I am a large guy and don't have much room in a 944 to move, but I do when on track. When you get to the point you are bending the steering wheel just trying to hold yourself in position, you may want better seat support...

i was merely making reference to as disparate a situation as i could think of

again, i am not arguing the logic or benefit of making the the same - i am only saying that it is better to get the driver secured and thereby more in control of the car - he is the one ultimately responsible for the safety of its occupants - if he gets in over his head and is out of position in the car, the likelihood of an incident is increased

if a choice has to be made whether or not to run with a good driver seat with a harness and a stock passenger seat with stock belts, or both stock seats with stock belts, this is a no brainer - any rule that chooses the less safe setup, no matter what it is, is a bad rule

?? how did u get that? If the driver seatbelts are 5pt harnesses attached to a rollbar, then the passenger seat belts must meet the same minimum requirement for the driver's belts, which is for the shoulder straps to be attached to a rollbar.

You might get away with just taking passengers in that seat, if you could get through tech and pre grid, but I was told most instructors would decline and had the right to do so.

And hitting the wall at 100mph probably feels the same whether it's racing or DE. It still happens in both and is an irrelevant point in my opinion. Just because it's school, doesn't mean squat and I don't think you should diminish the fact that it's serious business out there during DE's. Everybody drives their cars close to or past the limit in DE, I don't care what they say. They get away with letting you use factory restraints by calling it school, but fact is some of those street cars are turning faster lap times than fully prepped racecars. I've shared the track with many,many,many exotic high performance sports cars or highly tuned street cars in DE levels 1 and 2.

I think I know your what your saying - keep the driver anchored and the passenger is safer. I guess so, but it's like saying,"I'm safe and in control, so you don't need to bother with the extra hassle of buckling a 5 pt harness." But not all incidents are within the control of the driver (mechanical failure, fouled track surface, other driver error) so him/her being better secured has no effect on the outcome. And frankly, I didn't start spinning out in my car until after I was harnessed in, guess I was more careful when my butt was sliding around. People do push harder when they're anchored down better.

No disrespect, but it would haunt me all of my days if my passenger got hurt or worse because I went cheap and didn't give them the same shot at surviving that I had.

You wouldn't let your kids ride in a school bus without the same restraint as the dri......wait......bad example. You wouldn't ride in a city bus without seat bel.....uh, wait. You wouldn't be a passenger on Amtrak without.....oh forget it. Your right, passengers don't even need seat belts at all.

+1.

Nuff said.

i think i need to find a track with a downhill straight to get to 100mph. heh

spec - you quoted it differently in the first post than in your second - in the first, it says that they must meet the same minimum spec, but in the second you said they must match - which is it? i flew this by an attorney, and the first one means that the passenger belts must meet the minimum spec allowable in the car, but does NOT mean that they need to meet the spec of the driver belts

everybody needs to stop arguing the wisdom of better gear - that is a given

i am arguing the wisdom of providing a quicker route to a better driver

if these guys are out there driving over their heads, this is the fault of the instructor who allows it and the organizer who set that in motion - the answer is simple - slow them down until they are ready

i want safer drivers out there too - them learning is the only way to accomplish that - allowing them to slide around slows down that process, thereby increasing MY risk factors

i would much rather have 4 20 minute sessions than 3 30 minute sessions if it meant that the novices with no harnesses could be in their own group

OK. Here is the Deal. Both DS and PS safety equipment must be the same. No need for the same brand just same stuff. SOOO if I have race seat and 5 points on the driver siad then I need them for the Pass side. FOund it all out at the DE event at LRP thursday. It was MAD FUN

see - that's my point - this would prohibit you from learning because you couldn't go out there - that is counter to the very basic idea that improving a driver is the most important factor in track safety

all they have to do is limit the speeds of cars like that - a street car run group is an easy answer - it is a much better solution, which still provides for the driver improvement, without degrading the safety or increasing the likelihood that the mounting points will ultimately wear out due to constant R&R of seats - seat mounting points are not designed to have seats constantly removed and reinstalled

this is clearly a case of what perhaps on the surface seems to be a wise preventative measure actually doing more harm than good

they either need to break out cars with OEM seats and belts out into a group of their own, or outlaw them altogether - prohibiting a car that is safer because it has a better driver seat and harness is just dumb

Sigh.

flash968, no offense, but until you take over and run DE for your area and get together with the club lawyers and have to rules changed, it is what it is... The ultimate solution is to just drive a stock car and not worry about it.

. . .and this will all have to be accomplished without any working instructors within earshot.

This thread has turned into a good headache inducer. Some 'experts' just don't like to be disproven.

And being in a novice run group or not, some cars are just plain fast and some cars do pop balljoints and break control arms at speed and some cars do blow up engines leaving oil and coolant all over the track. Why settle for safety? I think one point in this ruling is if safety of your passenger and yourself has a price tag then maybe your in the wrong hobby. Not eveyone is going to wear a full fire suit and HANS device (most higher run group drivers do the HANS) but belts and proper seats are pretty basic on the list of safety equipment.

lol - not at all - pca is really the only organization that is of concern here, and not being one to deal with them much anyway (there are so many better organizations out there) it really isn't an issue

it all comes down to money - they want to cram as many cars into a group as possible - this is the primary cause of accidents, not what belts somebody is wearing - this is what will be the next issue for the attorneys

on most tracks there should never be more than 20 cars in a novice run group - it is very easy to show the rate of incline of incident when this is exceeded - frequently this is exceeded by a wide margin - this is dangerous

as for the instructors, as much as they might not like it, the reality is that they all want their own track time, and will sit in the seat regardless so as to get it - all they have to do is slow down the driver, which they should be doing anyway - they would be safer if the driver isn't moving around, whether they are or not - that cannot be argued - the complaint is invalid and illogical

if they are going to limit belts to harnesses, fine - i'm all for safety - limiting just the passenger seat is stupid - allowing stock seats and belts on the driver side, and allowing them to get into unsafe situations is not wise - this is something the attorneys need to look at more closely

safety should never be a compromise - a car with stocks seats an belts anywhere is less safe than a car with at least a proper driver seat and harness - there is no way this can be argued - a car with a novice driver and an instructor is even safer, regardless of how the instructor is strapped in

i've been racing (and even instructing) since before most of the people on this board were born (wow, that hurt just to think about it) i've seen it all - heck, i started when lap belts were fine for driving school - i've watched it progress to the point where it is now - i am all for safety and prepare my cars accordingly - however, the single biggest factor in my safety, outside me and my car, is the skill level of the other driver - the more seat time they can get the better - i'd rather have them get 3 more DE events in than have to pop for a passenger seat and harness

Yup!