As I do agree with most things said, I do notice that the CVR PCA does limit run groups to about 20-25 people at a time, They have closed groups because of to many people, I will gave to say, The green run group has to be the most dangerous, I run green since I just started this year but man, the rang of skill levels in green is silly, Some people do real good, Others seem to forget how to drive LOL

Just my thoughts as a PCA Instructor...

flash I think the hostile responses you are generating are due to all your inflammitory comments regarding the PCA. Also the amount of biased assuming that you seem to profess as 100% fact.

The big thing people seem to be missing more then anything is the danger of 5 or 6 pt harnesses in a car without rollover protection. Having any kind of harnesses in a car without a roll bar or roll cage is silly and dangerous.

As far as people not coming out because of the cost of a passenger seat and harness, i call BS. There are 2 race seats in the for sale forums right now under 200, and a latch lock harness is 100. If you can spend 300 on doing it for one side, you can spend 600 to do it for both. If you can't afford it, get a pair of CG-Locks (which work excellent btw), and are much safer without the aforementioned rollover protection. You keep refering to PCA exclusivity, and that these rules are turning numberous people away. No one is required to have race seats and harnesses, but they are required to provide their instructor with them if they choose to have them for themselves. That makes sense in my book. And as someone who learned with 3 point belts and stock 914 seats (might as well be a bench seat for as well it holds you in), I did not find myself expecially hindered by it, and when i put in my roll cage and seats and belts, I did it on both sides. It never occured to me not to.

To be fair, I would rather see a bolt in roll bar, and 2 properly set up seats and harnesses then $4000 wheels and $2000 exhaust... but guess what I see more of?

I think you need to look at these bits as safety equipment in the case of an accident, not as items that allow you to go faster. But if you insist on looking at them that way, then understand, if the driver is more comfortable pushing the limit because they are strapped in, the chances of something happening increase, and the instructor is in even more danger without the said safety gear.

lastly, to quote...

"however, in a DE, the idea is to train the driver - the driver can be more easily trained if he is not having to worry about moving around in the seat - the driver is also more likely to be able to control the car if he is strapped in - forcing someone to DOWNGRADE their safety gear for the comfort of the instructor is counter-productive to both goals"

No one is forcing anyone to downgrade. You are talking about a person with stock restraints wanting to upgrade. They need to factor in the cost of upgrading both, not just one. No one is downgrading. And if you think its for comfort, well I do not know what to say, as you seem to completely miss the point of safety gear.

+10

again my point is missed

i am not arguing the logic of safety gear - that is a given - of course it is best to have every safety device possible

but if a decision is made to exclude a driver simply because the driver seat has better gear than the passenger seat, which in turn means that the driver must either choose to downgrade his gear or not learn how to drive, it is downright stupid to exclude him - there is an argument to be made that doing such a thing INCREASES the likelihood of disaster due to forcing the driver to be subjected to inadequate safety gear - a smart attorney will be looking out for this to happen, as it places the liability squarely on the shoulders of the event organizer - those waivers aren't worth the paper they are written on, so this is only a matter of time

the solution is merely to place him in a group and limit speeds such that it does not subject the passenger to such danger

as for the pca remarks - they are earned

If you can afford to take your car to HPDE, with all it's inherent risks (damaged car, possible injuries, etc)....why is it so hard to purchase the right equipment ?

If you cannot afford to buy the equipment, than you shouldn't be doing HPDE.

Follow the rules. Properly set up your car, and do not drive beyond your capabilities. Everyones a winner. It's that simple.

And again, any point contrary to yours, is missed.

Anyway, since PCA DEs suck, and you have far better options, why do you even care about our rules?

no, it's not

we are talking about training a driver - this cross applies to daily driving safety as well - a better trained driver is safer - anything we can do to facilitate that should be done - making someone make a choice between a safe seat and a stock seat and delaying learning is stupid and counterproductive

one must remember that we are frequently talking about somebody who has to choose between a rebuilt starter and a new one because of budget - a safer seat means a safer driver - a safer driver means a safer passenger

if somebody has to do the seats one at a time, or chooses not to do the passenger seat, that should not preclude them from learning how to drive

removing and reinstalling race seats is NOT safe

driving on the street with race seats is NOT legal in most states

the most important thing is to teach the driver - driver skill is the single most important safety item

if the instructor is worried, then he needs to slow the driver down until he isn't - this is their responsibility - they are directly responsible for the safety of everyone involved

as i said, a good attorney is going to be watching out for this, and it won't be long before one of them takes advantage of this really bad decision

as for why i care, it's because some of those drivers spill over to other DE events, and not being as well trained as they could be, they put me at risk

<- loves it when laypeople delve into "lawyer talk"

lol - me too - cracks up my wife (the attorney) all the time when we see people do it

Flash, respond to my main point....that harnesses without rollover protection are actually more dangerous. Which is precisely why they are not legal in some states. I have never seen a law regarding race seats not being legal, but if they are, it makes my point even more. Porsche factory restraint systems are crash tested, as a system. That includes the seats, vehicle crush zones, etc. A weekend warrior bolting a race seat in to a 911 once a month doesn't usually have the benefits of those years of testing and engineering. I would argue that the same person bolting in a race seat (one or two, does not matter) is NOT a safer driver for doing it. That of course seems to be our main point of dissension. We will have to agree to disagree there I think.

You seem to be refering to a small population that somehow has only 1 race seat already in their car before reading the rules (and not reading the rules) and decides to come to the track anyway. Lets say this uninformed person bought his older 911 and it didn't have a passenger seat belt at all... does POC let him run anyway, because they don't want to be PCA snobs?

You keep bringing up lawyers and attorneys. I would think an instructor injured as a passenger riding in a car without equal restraints would have a much firmer footing in a lawsuit, but thats just me.

And the comparison to reman vs new starters is absurd. This is the Porsche Club. The majority of members are towards the wealthier spectrum (not all, but most), and frankly the price of an extra seat is very little compared to what they have put in their car in performance or appearance upgrades. Keep in mind, I say this as a single person who started in the club in 2004 with a $2500 914, making $11/hour working at an autoparts store. We are not talking about $6k Race Tech Halo seats and $500 harnesses.

You know CG-Lock makes an instructor version, that attaches and detaches more easily. Maybe we as instructors should begin carrying those around as we do communicators. It will keep us and our students more secure, and they will all drive better...ala your reasoning that butt movement has a direct impact on driver skill.

And this quote...

"as for why i care, it's because some of those drivers spill over to other DE events, and not being as well trained as they could be, they put me at risk"

No offense, but you are suggesting that a driver who does not drive with a race seat is an inferior driver and thus a danger to you? Every driver starts as a novice, and faces their own individual learning curve. There are SOOOO many other factors that contribute to that curve, that the "butt-slide-factor" doesn't even register to me. Of course you have been an instructor a lot longer then me as well, but it sure seems like a stretch.

Again, just my thoughts as an instructor and a driver. Your mileage will vary.

man has this gotten out of control

just so nobody thinks i'm trying to skate on safety, i have full 5 pt harnesses on both seats and rollover protection in my toy

harness and rollover protection are completely independent issues - true rollover protection would never come into play unless the car rolled over, which is by far the minority of incidents - harnesses would come into play in almost any incident

most cars out there in a DE have no rollover protection

harnesses improperly installed, which is to what i think you are referring, can result in spinal compression injuries - that does not mean that harnesses cannot be properly installed without rollover protection

i am referring to the segment of lower level cars - there are a LOT of them - they are primarily older 911s, 914s, and 944s - you may or may not see them at your region, but i have seen them in mine, and others - the owners of these cars are often struggling as it is - it's a stretch for them to afford to get out there - you can see evidence of that from many discussions here - people are constantly complaining about the cost of maintenance of these cars - frankly i think they are very cheap, and typically spend $15k a year maintaining my toy, so i am not that audience, but i can certainly appreciate the situation of the guy who just wants to learn to drive and has to buy things for his car a paycheck at a time

as for the majority of the club being wealthier, i think you need to take another look - while certainly many of them are, by and large the average income is quite middle class (about $97,000/yr) - the largest group of owners by far are those with older cars, which are relatively inexpensive to own - the guys on this board are typical examples - poll them and see

as for the instructor, he is the party responsible for establishing the parameters of the safety of both parties - in the event of an incident whereby the student entered into a situation which resulted in an accident that could have been avoided had he not been out of position and unable to control the car, the argument would be made that the instructor directed the student to enter into a situation which was unmanageable, thereby contributing to that accident - contributory negligence would apply here - sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt that didn't need to, and somebody is going to sue - some poor instructor is going to lose his house, and pca is going to take a big hit

the instructor is the one who determines how fast a student drives - he is the one who determines his own safety - if he thinks a student is putting him in danger, he is in a unique position to do something about it

if a student gets out of control in a situation, and is not firmly planted in the seat, he is less likely to regain control of that situation than if he is planted in the seat

all they have to do is separate out cars with 2 people, not allow passing ever in that group, and control the pace - problem solved

for the record, you should NEVER remove and reinstall seats on a continued basis - the threads in the floor are not designed for this - they lose their ability to retain torque very quickly - they are designed to be installed ONCE - if removed, they are to be reinstalled using a threadlock compound

all i am suggesting is that removing any safety device puts any occupant at more risk - putting anyone at more risk is worse - any additional safety device is better than no additional safety device

i don't understand why this logic escapes people

frankly i'd like to see all street seats and street belts in separate groups from those with harnesses and such - it is all too common for someone's ego to get the better of them and drive beyond their ability and try to keep up with a faster driver, even if in a slower car - far too often we see a slower car grouped with a fast one, just because a driver is the same skill level - this would be fine if it weren't for the guy who thinks he drives better than he does and feels that if that 60 year old guy in the 912 can keep up with the girl in the GT3 then so can he in his 951 - he doesn't realize that the 60 year old guy in the 912 has won 40 national championships and could drive blindfolded

more run groups and less time each is a better answer than piling up cars

we all want everyone to be safe - we all want everyone to drive better - i simply think that we need to keep the main goal in mind, and put the responsibility of establishing the safety parameters back on the instructor, not on the student's wallet

the other thing to remember is that these are DRIVER EDUCATION events - they are designed to teach students how to drive on a race track so they can go racing - you aren't supposed to stay there - you are supposed to learn how to drive and then go racing

roflmao - happy thanksgiving