question about side mirrors

newoldguy · 12-08-2001, 07:43 PM

I want to take my side mirrors off to get them repainted. Found the 4mm screw that holds it to the door. No problem there. But now---how do I disconnect the wiring? I have the door panel off and can't see any connector inside the door. What do I need to do? Thanks in advance!!
Curtis' '87 944 n/a

mike944 · 12-08-2001, 08:49 PM

With great difficulty!

You need to remove the mirror glass and the connector is in there, it's a white plastic round connector.

The problem, as you no doubt will notice, is the connector won't fit through the small hole in the bottom of the mirror.

You need a special tool to remove the pins in the connector 1 at a time. (disconnect the battery first, and don't forget to label which pin goes where) This is the factory procedure, and it is virtually impossible to do without the special tool, and i'm not sure where to get it. I searched Pelican, and i can't seem to find it. I know it IS available, i've seen it listed somewhere before.

Good luck

Mike

newoldguy · 12-08-2001, 10:25 PM

OK, how do you remove the mirror glass to get inside?

Rob-O · 12-08-2001, 10:32 PM

The type of connectors are called Molex (tm) connectors. They make all kinds of connectors, but are well known for the bullet and receptacle type that is inside the mirror. There are two sizes if I remember correctly. a .062 connector and a .093. I think the 944 mirror uses the smaller one. You can get the tool from a good electronics store (got a Fry's by you? They carry 'em). The tool in basically a tube that is spring loaded on one end. You push it over the connector (you actually cover the metal part of the conector by doing this) and it pushes the little clips on the connector in. Then you push on the whole tool and it presses the connector out of the plastic block (or whatever else people use to seat connectors). You'll see when you get the tool. I would suppose that you could just find a little piece of tubing that is the right size, slip ot over the metal connector and slide something else down the tube to chase the connector out of the plastic block. Same concept as the tool, just a different approach.

You can also cut the wires...but of course we'r not that type of people, are we. Otherwise we woudn't be driving Porsches. Cutting wires is best left to Chevy's or something along those lines. Fifteen years from now nobody is going to be looking at the inside of the Chevy!

After you get the mirror apart, check the little plastic bushing between the mirror base and the mirror housing itself. Sometimes these things get chewed up. Best to replace it now while you're in there and the thing is apart.

newoldguy · 12-09-2001, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the advice and knowledgeable input on the wiring. Can anybody tell me if I want to dare try to take the mirror glass out?? Knowing how things go for me, if there's a high probability of breaking it, I will. Advice please.

Rob-O · 12-09-2001, 08:54 PM

Actually, on your year model, the mirrors are generally easy to get out. There is a locking ring that must be moved about an 1/8 of a turn. To access the locking ring, look at the bottom of the mirror. You'll see two holes, one is for water to escape after car washing, rain, etc. The other is to access the locking ring. If you move the mirror around a little, you'll be able to see what almost look like a couple of teeth from a black plastic gear. This is part of the locking ring. You'll need to insert something like an awl or a small screwdriver through the hole to psuh these teeth in one direction or the other. If you try pushing them in one direction, and it doesn't turn, then try the other direction. You'll feel it move and then rest against it's stop. There is usually a little suction keeping the mirror glass itself attached to the housing, but be on the safe side and try to kep a hand on it. Once the teeth are moved, the mirror should feel loose. Wiggel it around a little and it should fall from the housing. It shouldn't fall far (you still have your hand there, don't you!) and there are two wires attached to the mirror for the electrically heated glass (if that was an option on your car). The wires should be there if you have power mirrors, which you do or we wouldn't be having this conversation on how to get the wires undone.

Pull the two wires, you'll see some small nuts holding the rubber glass surround. You can get those wires I mentioned earlier out once the mirror glass is off.

Then you want to pull the two halves of the mirror apart. You should be able to loosen the bolt that holds the halves together. If I remember, I actually had to use a large SAE socket for that.

Paint, reinstall and you're done. Again, watch out for the little trianglular gasket between the two halves of the mirror. And if your mirro base gasket is hard, replace it. They're really cheap (as cheap as Porsche mirror base gaskets go) and finish off the painted mirror. I put my old gasket on at first and it looked like trash. Was a little weatherbeaten, non flexible, barely black. New one looked great.

newoldguy · 12-09-2001, 11:06 PM

Hey Rob-O You da man!

What a great board! I'm going to hunt down that tool and I'll get back to you guys if I can find it. I can't be the only one needing it and its a way to pay the group back.
Curtis

DennisR_944 · 12-10-2001, 05:55 AM

I've never had any luck trying to go through that little hole to release my mirrors. If you'll tilt the mirror so that it's pointed up as far as you can get it, you can take a flashlight and shine it into the gap at the bottom and you'll see the locking ring. Just insert a small screwdriver into the gap and push the ring one way or the other to move the ring and release the mirror. Good luck.

Rob-O · 12-10-2001, 05:43 PM

Yeah, you can also do what DennisR suggests. I tried it at first, but it seemed that I was perilously close to tearing up the black rubber that surrounds the mirror.

What color is the vehicle and do you plan on painting these things yourself?

newoldguy · 12-10-2001, 10:11 PM

Got on the phone today and the local electronics store had what I was looking for. The tool is called a "Molex Extraction Tool" and it has the following marks: 11 03 0002 and HT 2285. It is the .062 size. Paid $16 for it which seems high but so does espresso.

The car is Guards Red. I've got a couple of leads for guys who do painting for custom cars and the like. I wouldn't tackle painting myself because I just don't have the equipment. My car must have been driven on sand/gravel or in the winter with sanded roads because the mirrors (and windshield) are like they've been sandblasted. I'm also going to have the spoiler, bumper, nose, and headlight covers done at the same time. I'm taking all the parts in separate from the car which is why I'm messing with the mirrors. The spoiler is in bad shape with a couple of cracks that I am going to tackle patching. This will really put the car back in shape cosmetically.

Thanks again guys for all your input! I'd be hopelessly lost and know I couldn't maintain this car without all the help!
Curtis

Rob-O · 12-10-2001, 11:25 PM

Just a note to you or your painter, however you'd like to look at it. Guards Red on an '87 944 is what would be considered a "one pack" paint system. A painter will understand explicitly what this means. To the laymen, it means that on our cars, the color and the gloss come all in one can. Newer cars, since around 1984 or so have used a two pack paint system. Commonly reffered to as a "basecoat/clearcoat" paint system. Each has it's good and bad points. With a one pack system, a good point is that dull paint can be buffed (polished, rubbed out, whatever you want to call it) with good results. When you buff a one pack system, the pad you use to apply the polish will end up having the color of your car on it. That's because you're taking paint off with the polish. On a two pack system, all you're really polishing or buffing is the clearcoat. Which is usually fine because the color underneath is still looking good from being protected by the clearcoat.

Of course the bad point is just that on a one pack. It needs to be buffed or polished to keep it's shine. Their chemical makeup usually means that they're not really good at one thing (color) or another (gloss). It usualy ends up with all one pack systems that the color is stabil, but the gloss can't hold up. So we end up having to polish it out every so often. The two pack type paint system with a clearcoat offers gloss and with it protection from the elements (acid rain and such).

Automakers usually use a one pack type of paint when they don't want to spring for two paints (the color and the clearcoat). Red, because the pigment, or color, is expensive to manufacture, is right up the as far as high cost goes. That cost is filtered down to the consumer. If you were building cars, it would filter right on down to you, the automaker. So they try to kill two birds with one stone.

You'll find one pack systems on cheaper cars in an automakers lineup. This isn't necessarily the case with Porsche. Instead it has been a case of use. Think of how long they've been using Guards Red. It's been around long before "basecoat/clearcoat" systems have been around. So with the 944, it was more just a matter of using what they were accustomed to and what worked well. For some colors other than Guards Red in 1987, they did use basecoat/clearcoat systems, but those were generally colors that hadn't been around that long.

Anyhow, let your painter know that it is a one pack system and you want a one pack system back on it. It would be almost impossible to match a "one pack" (the rest of your car) and a "two pack" (your freshly painted parts) paint system. You'll also want to make sure he gets a quality paint. There are paint companies and paint systems out there that use little resin in their formulations. If you were to use a basecoat/clearcoat system, you might not notice the effect for some years (certainly the painter wouldn't as he was applying it), but it will eventually show. In a one pack system, if you get a paint that is thin in the resin department, then it will be thin on the vehicle once applied. That means bad things for your car. Thin paint will lead to easier chipping (something you're trying to repair already), make visible any repair marks under the paint (like sandpaper marks from fixing that spolier!), less material to polish later on (once it starts getting dull in a few years) and little ultraviolet protection from the sun. UV stabilization is an expensive part of a paint systems raw materials cost, so paint companies skimp on that already, no sense it putting on cheap paint and having even less of what's barely in there to begine with. If you go that route that paint is really going to dull fast.

Okay, I ranted enough. Make sure you get good paint. As a matter of fact, I'd almost suggest going down to the local paint store and asking them what they recommend, then buying it and giving it to your painter. Just because a paint is manufactured by a certain company (PPG, for example), don't buy their cheapest paint thinking you're coming out on top because you bought a name brand. All aftermarket paint companies offer low cost paint systems nowadays. And they usually don't even have their name on it. The paint salesmen might say, "oh, this is by Dupont, but it's one of their smaller companies that manufactures this". Yet, no Dupont name anywhere on the can. Beware of that!!

Personally I recommend PPG paints, but that's just a personal preferrence. But they have their low cost line too, and I'm here to tell you it sucks.

Uh, by the way, I work for a plastics company (we make automobile fascias, claddings, rub strips, interior pieces, your air bag cover) and I run a paint laboratory and an artificial weathering laboratory for that company. I'm just trying to give you some background info so your baby stays looking sweet. If you're taking the time to do all this work to your 15 year old car, you obviously have some pride in it. Just want to make sure it stays looking good and that you're educated on the subject!

Okay, oww, my fingers hurt...

Rob-O

1987 Guards Red 944 "S"
1974 White 914-6 (2.2 liter)

Rob-O · 12-10-2001, 11:31 PM

Curtis,

One last thing. You may want to let the painter do the work on the spoiler. These guys are faster, better (usually) and know what to use to patch your spolier (again...usually). Some guys would rather do the work themselves. And, they're going to charge you to do it over again if it wasn't done right.

Good luck!!

Rob-O

newoldguy · 12-11-2001, 10:37 PM

Wow! Great advice! Hope you don't get carpal tunnel after all that typing. I was aware of the basic difference between the old (one pack as you call it) versus the base/clear coat paint. But never in so much detail. I will follow your advice, check out the higher line PPG, etc.

For the moderators: I think one of the guys a while back suggested some sort of "index" or resource book--something like that. This discussion would be a great example for such a thing. Where else can you get such great input from people who are doing the work everyday?
Curtis

bill*924s · 12-12-2001, 10:28 AM

Hey Rob, Sounds like you've been staring into the ol' xenon arcs for some time. From the sound of it, we work for the same type of company. We also make airbag covers, facias, interior trim & wheel covers.

For everybody else, Rob is 100% correct in everything had said about color & gloss. The man knows what he is talking about. You can't even imagine the kind of grief we get from the OEM's about color & gloss and the things we have to do to keep them happy.

Drop me an e-mail sometime Rob.

Merry X-Mas Y'all

Rob-O · 12-12-2001, 06:15 PM

Well, good luck Curtis. I'm sure we'd all like to see a before and after pic or two if you can manage it.

Bill, dropped you a line...

As for the moderators, I would entertain the idea of writing a paper on the basics (and maybe not so basics) of paint. I'm lucky enough to have learned a great deal about it. I know that when I didn't know anything about it how much of a "black art" it was. Application of paint is one thing, what makes up the paint is another. I have experience with both that could be useful to the members. I could take a little of the Voo-Doo outta it by explaining...

Rob-O

newoldguy · 12-14-2001, 10:05 PM

Hey Rob-O,
Man, I think we'd be crazy not to access your advice but I don't know how to get the moderators to put this together. Anybody out there got any ideas?

And, I might as well just ask you--what specific paint and maker would you recommend I buy in the way of paint for my '87 Guards Red car??? And, I think you can buy quarts so would one quart be enough for the spoiler, mirrors, headlight covers, and nose?
Curtis

Rob-O · 12-15-2001, 08:26 AM

Personally, I recommend PPG paints. With the type of coating you will be using, you will actually need two different items. One will be the paint, one will be the catalyst. You'll have to mix part "A" with part "B" to get your material to harden after it's been sprayed. You may also have to get some flexibilizer for the paint (this will help keep the paint on the front spoiler flexible). I would assume that whatever painter you choose will have the appropriate primer or primer/surfacer to get things looking right before the application of the color coat.

I'll have to look at PPG's site to give you an exact line of paint that you want to use. It's usually a "Del" something line. Like "Deltron" or something like that. Deltron isn't what you'll need, but it's something with the "Del" name in it if I remember correctly. I tried some stuff called "Omni" awhile back and it was terrible. It was one of PPG's low line stuff. Like I said before, there wasn't a trace of the PPG name on the can anywhere. I should have known better. Since then I've talked with some friends in the paint and body shop industry and they've had similar experiences with Duponts low line and other manufacturers low line materials as well.

There is a difference between the paints I use on a regular basis and the type that you will be using on your vehicle. Pints could be broken down into two categories, OEM and aftermarket. Here's an explanation, and I'll try not to be confusing. PPG (every other big name manufacturer does also) makes paint for the OEM's (Original Equipment Manufacturer's, otherwise know as an automaker). The paint they sell to GM, or Ford or Chrysler or Porsche is much different in chemical composition, and of much higher quality, than what you'll get at the local paint store.

So how is it different? Well, take for instance quality. The OEM's require that the paint passes certain specifications. These specifications require testing of the paint that is demanding and rigorous enough to weed out bad product. Without getting into what makes up paint, what component of paint fails most often, etc. I can tell you that they put a majority of their research work into factory applied (OEM) paints. And it makes sense! They may be selling lot's of aftemarket paint, but not nearly as much as they sell of OEM paint. I don't have an exact amount of how much paint is used to paint an entire vehicle, because surely it changes form car to car (a GEO Metro obviously will take less than a Ford Excursion). But let's take for example one vehicle line, the Ford Taurus. The Taurus has been close to the top of the best selling car list for years. Usually around 400,000 units (cars) or so a year. Divide that by 365 days in a year and you find that they're building almost 1,100 of these things a day...for one line of vehicle. And they need enough paint to spray that whole car, primer, basecoat, clearcoat, whatever process the car receives paint wise. I'm sure when you start imagining all the cars that Ford produces, and then all the cars that GM produces, and Daimler-Chrysler, you start to see how much paint could be needed.

What else makes it different? Well, imagine painting all those cars in one day, day in, day out. Paint takes time to dry, where would you put all those cars while the paint was drying? It would have to be somewhere that was extremely clean, so that you wouldn't get dirt in the drying paint. Certainly couldn't be outside! Even a nice room inside wouldn't work. As cars were drying, you'd be constantly bringing in newly painted cars and removing dried cars. So how do they do it? They bake the paint on in giant ovens. Typically a vehicle will see at least two heat signatures, once after the primer is applied, and another after the basecoat/clearcoat is applied. We're talking about 30 minutes at 250 deg. F for the primer and the same for the basecoat/clearcoat. So there's another significant difference. These coatings are designed to be cured. Some types will never dry unless they're cured by oven. Aftermarket paints are usually designed to be sprayed and then heated to maybe 140 deg. F to help speed up the process, but they aren't designed with the same chemical composition as OEM paints.

What else is different? Well, in parts of your vehicle (we'll take our 944 as an example) aren't even painted with the same type of OEM paints. Your front spoiler (under the steel bumper) and those little plastic pieces that seem to connect your rear bumper to the rest of the vehicle (on the sides of the bumper) are made of plastic. Those paints are designed to be flexible. If they weren't the first time you bumped into a curb, The plastic would give, but the paint wouldn't. Instead it would crack. So these paints are different too. In the OEM world, they are specifically designd for this purpose (remember they have to be tested to pass a specification testing...testing that in this case would undoubtedly require the coating to show how good it's flexibility is). In the aftermarket world, some guy is going to add a flexibilizer to your paint in order to get it to be a little flexible. I'm not even going to get into what those "flexibilizers" do, because then we're talking serious chemistry, and this ain't the board for all that!

As a final note, parts of your car are painted all over the country, sometimes all over the world, before they are broght together and assembled on the vehicle. Sometimes things don't match that great, sometimes the manufacturer of the car doesn't care. GM probably isn't that worried if the paint on their GEO Metro is going to last for ten years. Why? Because the car most likely won't be around that long. Your Ford Excursion, however is another story.

Okay, enough paint lessons for today. We'll be having a test covering all this material on Thursday of next week...

I'll try to look into some PPG aftermarket info, and get back to you. You may want to look it up as well. You might be quicker!

After Christmas we'll start covering application of paint. "Thickness, gloss and appearance".

And to think I thought nobody was interested in this stuff...

Rob-O

newoldguy · 12-16-2001, 08:03 PM

Looking forward to the continuing story after the holidays.

For anybody tackling this project, RobO's advice was right on. Remember this is on my '87 (your results may differ). There are two holes on the bottom of the mirror housing. I would advise leaving the mirror housing attached to the car door at this point. It will be easier to do later anyway. The big hole is the one where you can see the rubber thing that looks like a gear. As stated, just push one way or the other. It doesn't move very far--maybe a quarter of an inch or so. And then the gaskets inside cause suction that makes you think it (the mirror) won't come off but just gently pull and it will let go.

The only other thing I might add is that I apparently bought the wrong size Molex tool. It would appear that my car requires the larger (.093) size so I'll take the one back and get the other. So, mirror glass is out and closing in on getting the housing off next.
Curtis

Rob-O · 12-16-2001, 08:58 PM

Yeah, I ran into the Molex size problem also. The small one was too small, the big one was too big. I think I did have to use the .093 and just work the pins out very slowly and watch the side clips to make sure they cleared the housing.

Good Luck Curtis, and don't forget those pics...

newoldguy · 12-16-2001, 09:42 PM

This is starting to sound like a Goldilocks story---too hot/too cold; too big/too little. I'll move to the bigger one and be careful as you suggest. I may have to take some regular pictures and try to attach them via scan. Believe it or not, I haven't made the jump to digital cameras yet. Don't know what I'm waiting for other than for the prices to go down a little more. Heck, I could get a 3.1 megapixel for a lot less than white gauge faces. So, let's see, another problem that COULD be solved with enough money. Or, I could just tell "the boss" that with all the money I'm saving by doing all this work myself I can easily afford the camera. Sounds good guys, right????