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Porsche Crest Need help now!

Just discovered something very strange....

I changed the clutch a while ago. Haven't driven the car much since thing though so this problem never sprung out into attention.

Well I crank and no start; so knowing these cars have crankposition sensors, and me being paranoid about them since I've had some fail on me before with other cars, that was the first thing I checked.

And sure enough, that was the problem...

Here's what has thrown me for a loop... the engine will start when it just hangs freely... but the moment I gap it properly and mount it, the engine just cranks like a dumb animal.
A friend said it can be a grounding issue, others have said it could be a faulty DME.

What in samhell is going on here

Also, when I take it out to drive, I notice MUCH power loss at random. often feeling like the engine is just going to shut down despite the clutch being engaged. These test runs were done at 87mph at which, acceleration was very sluggish and hesitant.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:15 PM
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Not sure here, but are you talking about the speed and reference sensors?

If you removed these, you may have put them back into the wrong spot. Try switching there positions to see if that helps.

BG = Reference mark sensor
DG = Speed sensor

There should be labels on these cables near the top where they connect to the harness. On the block, where there should be marks showing B and D.

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TibetanT View Post
Not sure here, but are you talking about the speed and reference sensors?

If you removed these, you may have put them back into the wrong spot. Try switching there positions to see if that helps.

BG = Reference mark sensor
DG = Speed sensor

There should be labels on these cables near the top where they connect to the harness. On the block, where there should be marks showing B and D.

Hope this helps.
That was the first thing that came to mind to try. And yes I'm referring to the sensors on the bell housing. I didn't take the sensors themselves out but instead the block with them still in it.

I did try to take out the sensor to closest to the front of the block but it wouldn't budge so I put the bolt back in it and continued to fiddle with the entire block assy.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:57 PM
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The ground-wire between the block and body-shell needs to have clean connections as well. You risk the starter-current going through the DME if the block grounds aren't good. That's a sure way to end up with a faulty DME.

With the age of these cars, every time I take an engine out, I always replace all the ground cables in the engine-bay. They may look fine from the outside, but are corroded and crumbling to dust under the insulation.
Old 08-14-2010, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
The ground-wire between the block and body-shell needs to have clean connections as well. You risk the starter-current going through the DME if the block grounds aren't good. That's a sure way to end up with a faulty DME.

With the age of these cars, every time I take an engine out, I always replace all the ground cables in the engine-bay. They may look fine from the outside, but are corroded and crumbling to dust under the insulation.
Ah, so it is just a matter of checking my ground points? It makes sense to me now since that side of it has been explained
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Old 08-14-2010, 11:37 PM
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Also, what size are the bolts that hold the sensor block onto the engine? I seem to have lost them :P

Probably needed new ones anyway, the old ones were rusty.
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Old 08-15-2010, 06:41 AM
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For the sensor bracket, there are two (2) bolts needed. The top bolt is a M8 x 25mm while the bottom bolt is a M8 x 30mm. Two (2) washers are also shown on the parts diagram.

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-15-2010, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TibetanT View Post
For the sensor bracket, there are two (2) bolts needed. The top bolt is a M8 x 25mm while the bottom bolt is a M8 x 30mm. Two (2) washers are also shown on the parts diagram.

Hope this helps.
Thanks! I got it all back together and I moved the ground to a different location and she fired up Thanks again!


But, here's the flip side. Now that I've got that mess out of the way, the engine hunts or 'bogs' with RPMs. It doesn't idle very strong unless warmed up at which -SOMETIMES- the engine will idle out perfectly stable around 950-1k RPM.



I've checked my vacuum lines and everything is sealed tight, no leaks. What other things could it be? I was thinking the TPS but I can't imagine something like that going bad... well, so bad to the point the engine stumbles over itself. Even when I go to drive it, getting into 1st can sometimes be a chore of life or death of the engine if you over throttle it or under throttle it, it just stumbles and dies too easily.

Could someone please help me make a check-list of possibilities that is causing this stumbling?
I'd need like the part(s) that could be causing this and a remedy for it.

Some of the things I thought it could have been are;

~Idle Air Control
~Throttle Position Sensor
~Air Flow Meter
~Fuel injectors
~Fuel pump (I don't know how this can make the engine stumble like that but someone said they too can be vital to smooth idles)
~Spark (and/or sparkplugs, which I replaced 1.3k miles ago)

Aside from the things I think I have fixed already, that list above are some things I think are making the engine idle so rough.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez-Bone View Post
These test runs were done at 87mph at which, acceleration was very sluggish and hesitant.
The flux capacitor kicks in at 88 mph, and if you weren't pulling 1.21 jigawatts thats what happens.
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmartenies View Post
The flux capacitor kicks in at 88 mph, and if you weren't pulling 1.21 jigawatts thats what happens.
You smartas$ lol :P
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Old 08-22-2010, 07:51 PM
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I would pull all the connectors related to engine electrical that you can find and check for corrosion, including the DME connector. You also should check all of your grounds, especially the two behind the dash up on the firewall behind the fuse block...PITA to access. Also make sure the primary supply wires to the fuse block are making good connection at the positive battery clamp. If it still runs like crap, try running some BG44K or Seafoam (nice and strong) in the gas and then change the fuel filter. It could also be a bad engine temp sensor, air temp sensor (in the AFM), bad AFM resistor track (YouTube - Rejuvenating a Bosch Motronic Air Flow Meter), excessively dirty, leaking, or burned out fuel injectors, bad oxygen sensor (unplug and see if it goes away), bad TPS (just a switch for idle and a switch for WOT...easy to check), vacuum leaks you don't know about (intake manifold gaskets, fuel injector seals, oil fill cap seal, oil fill to block seals (if they're really bad), cracked or loose hoses under the intake manifold that are very hard to inspect without removing), sticking idle stabilizer?, fuel pressure is wrong, wiring is broken somewhere, or (less likely) the DME has a bad solder joint internally, or (even less likely) massive blowby past the piston rings into the crankcase breather dilluting the already metered air in the intake after the AFM, just like a vacuum leak (the crankcase is pulled into vacuum by the breather system). There's really not much more that could be wrong, so start with the easy stuff and work down the list.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:20 PM
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I've tried cleaning the AFM and it still stumbles.

Wow, didn't realized computerized engines can be such a headache at times lol
Hmm, I've checked my electrical and everything seems to be fine but still the engine stumbles...

I'm really at a loss
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:29 PM
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Did you check that the AFM is receiving the correct voltage from the DME and is sending a smooth voltage signal in relation to flap angle afterwards to confirm correct operation. It could be that the resistor track has worn through somewhere. I've seen it said that the DME can wack out and go into oscilations if the voltage signal from the AFM ever drops out from a bad spot on the resistor track or maybe also from flaky wiring. How did it look when you had it apart?

Since yours is an early car, you should see approximately battery voltage being supplied to the AFM from the DME to pin 9 on the AFM (pins are numbered according to the pin they lead to on the DME plug...very convenient!). The AFM resistor track reduces the voltage according to the position of the flap and sends that voltage back to the DME through pin 7. You need to verify that the wiring is good supplying the AFM by measuring sufficient voltage at pin 9 on the AFM connector with the key on. It can also be measured internal to the AFM with the cover removed and it plugged in if you really want to make absolutely sure the AFM itself is getting the correct supply. If it is (I think 8v min up to battery voltage for the early), move on. If it isn't, find the DME, disassemble the connector block housing to access the back of the connector while it is plugged in and the key is on and measure the output at pin 9 against the AFM ground at pin 6 (or a normal ground pin...I can't remember exactly as I haven't done this in awhile, but I'm pretty sure pin 6 can be used and must be used for the air temp sensor signal). Either the AFM wiring, the DME, it's power supply wiring, or ground is faulty. Actually, it is still a good idea to check the voltage at the DME even if the AFM is getting sufficient voltage. The DME determines air mass by the difference between AFM supply voltage and returned signal voltage. If there's excessive resistance in the AFM supply part of the circuit, it will cause a lean condition since it thinks there's less flap angle and less air than there actually is. Same goes for the signal return wire.

Once that checks out, measure the output voltage at pin 7 on the AFM. It should be nearly the input voltage fully openned, transitioning smoothly to I think less than a volt at fully closed. If it doesn't, something's wrong with the AFM. The arm can be moved as explained in the vid to use fresh resistor if it is worn. It could be corrosion at the contacts between the board and the external connector (they just press against pads on the board), or the rotating contact at the top of the arm is dirty. The late AFMs have a redundant ground strap to supplement the rotating contact and is a good idea to add to early parts. If the output signal checks out ok at the AFM, it is a good idea to check it at the DME connector to ensure there's no bad wiring or connections. IIRC, when taking these measurements at the AFM, it must be measured against pin 6 for the ground, and may be true for measuring at the DME as well. Try it against pin 6 and if you get nothing, it may just need to be measured against a normal grounging point. Pin 6 I believe is only needed for grounding the air temp sensor.

Here's the article with the info. Air Flow Meter (AFM) - from "The 944 Motronic DME" by FR Wilk The AFM is very crucial to correct running and is worth thoroughly testing. Actually, I just remembered a very valuable troubleshooting method for these cars that really helped me know what wasn't the problem when I had random stumbling once warm right after getting my car back together fron the motor rebuild (turned out to be a bad O2 sensor). Ensure your full throttle switch is correctly adjusted and functioning properly. When the car is acting up while driving, hit full throttle. If it immediately "snaps out of it", you can narrow down the possible problems greatly. The Motronic runs in full open loop mode at WOT, ignoring the AFM signaling and the O2 sensor signaling. If it does run correctly at WOT, you know the problem only lies in either of those systems, or you have major vacuum leaks somewhere (no AFM polling means it doesn't care where the air comes from anymore). If it doesn't, it could still be either of those, but more likely something besides those.

Check it out. All of the other parts mentioned earlier could cause or contribute to the problem as well, so they are worth the fine tooth comb if it's still not working right. Check your ignition, too. A marginal coil, bad coil primary supply or grounding, severely cracked plug wires, or cracked/worn cap and rotor could also cause it.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot... http://www.the944.com/connector.htm
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Last edited by HondaDustR; 08-28-2010 at 05:52 PM..
Old 08-28-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaDustR View Post
Did you check that the AFM is receiving the correct voltage from the DME and is sending a smooth voltage signal in relation to flap angle afterwards to confirm correct operation. It could be that the resistor track has worn through somewhere. I've seen it said that the DME can wack out and go into oscilations if the voltage signal from the AFM ever drops out from a bad spot on the resistor track or maybe also from flaky wiring. How did it look when you had it apart?

Since yours is an early car, you should see approximately battery voltage being supplied to the AFM from the DME to pin 9 on the AFM (pins are numbered according to the pin they lead to on the DME plug...very convenient!). The AFM resistor track reduces the voltage according to the position of the flap and sends that voltage back to the DME through pin 7. You need to verify that the wiring is good supplying the AFM by measuring sufficient voltage at pin 9 on the AFM connector with the key on. It can also be measured internal to the AFM with the cover removed and it plugged in if you really want to make absolutely sure the AFM itself is getting the correct supply. If it is (I think 8v min up to battery voltage for the early), move on. If it isn't, find the DME, disassemble the connector block housing to access the back of the connector while it is plugged in and the key is on and measure the output at pin 9 against the AFM ground at pin 6 (or a normal ground pin...I can't remember exactly as I haven't done this in awhile, but I'm pretty sure pin 6 can be used and must be used for the air temp sensor signal). Either the AFM wiring, the DME, it's power supply wiring, or ground is faulty. Actually, it is still a good idea to check the voltage at the DME even if the AFM is getting sufficient voltage. The DME determines air mass by the difference between AFM supply voltage and returned signal voltage. If there's excessive resistance in the AFM supply part of the circuit, it will cause a lean condition since it thinks there's less flap angle and less air than there actually is. Same goes for the signal return wire.

Once that checks out, measure the output voltage at pin 7 on the AFM. It should be nearly the input voltage fully openned, transitioning smoothly to I think less than a volt at fully closed. If it doesn't, something's wrong with the AFM. The arm can be moved as explained in the vid to use fresh resistor if it is worn. It could be corrosion at the contacts between the board and the external connector (they just press against pads on the board), or the rotating contact at the top of the arm is dirty. The late AFMs have a redundant ground strap to supplement the rotating contact and is a good idea to add to early parts. If the output signal checks out ok at the AFM, it is a good idea to check it at the DME connector to ensure there's no bad wiring or connections. IIRC, when taking these measurements at the AFM, it must be measured against pin 6 for the ground, and may be true for measuring at the DME as well. Try it against pin 6 and if you get nothing, it may just need to be measured against a normal grounging point. Pin 6 I believe is only needed for grounding the air temp sensor.

Here's the article with the info. Air Flow Meter (AFM) - from "The 944 Motronic DME" by FR Wilk The AFM is very crucial to correct running and is worth thoroughly testing. Actually, I just remembered a very valuable troubleshooting method for these cars that really helped me know what wasn't the problem when I had random stumbling once warm right after getting my car back together fron the motor rebuild (turned out to be a bad O2 sensor). Ensure your full throttle switch is correctly adjusted and functioning properly. When the car is acting up while driving, hit full throttle. If it immediately "snaps out of it", you can narrow down the possible problems greatly. The Motronic runs in full open loop mode at WOT, ignoring the AFM signaling and the O2 sensor signaling. If it does run correctly at WOT, you know the problem only lies in either of those systems, or you have major vacuum leaks somewhere (no AFM polling means it doesn't care where the air comes from anymore). If it doesn't, it could still be either of those, but more likely something besides those.

Check it out. All of the other parts mentioned earlier could cause or contribute to the problem as well, so they are worth the fine tooth comb if it's still not working right. Check your ignition, too. A marginal coil, bad coil primary supply or grounding, severely cracked plug wires, or cracked/worn cap and rotor could also cause it.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot... http://www.the944.com/connector.htm
I've checked most of what I could for now. However, I know it was time to change a mass of things on this 26yr old machine anyway :P So I figured what better place than to start with the fuel system.

I got the fuel injectors, filter, pressure regulator, and damper done (pump was already new when I bought the car back in Dec 2007) And with all that, the car doesn't surg/hunt/bog/lope anymore. It idles steady finally.

HOWEVER, a new problem has surfaced... I think.
See, now that fuel delivery and pressure are correct, my engine has a very hard time staying alive from a cold start. She will idle then die if not throttling her up the entire warmup process. Once she's all warmed up then she'll idle on her own, but so low (around 800s) that she may shake herself to death and my oil light flashes faintly with each violant shake as if she's going to keel over.

I've had my suspisions that it is possibly my idle air control valve, Aux air valve, or the both of them. Or is it something deeper? It just seems like the fuel mixture isn't right, I'm thinking. I've tried adjusting the screw on the throttle body and it seems to have VERY little effect ever since I changed out the fuel system. Have I done something wrong? Before, I could get that engine to idle at 3k rpm if I wanted to, simply by adjusting that screw but now any adjustments hardly affect the engine speed.
On a second note, when I go to throttle it up, it bogs down so far before it 'catches' itself then shoots up in rpm like I wanted it to. Is that a sign of a faulty throttle sensor?
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:55 PM
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Well, several things could possibly cause that sort of problem. The DME coolant temp sender could be faulty. Check that it is in range. Sensors and Gauges - Information, Troubleshooting, and Testing I hooked it up to a multimeter and just heated it on the stove in a pot of water alongside a thermometer for exactness.

Definitely check that your throttle switch is operating correctly just to be sure. Throttle Position Switch - Information, Troubleshooting, Replacement, and Adjustment

Try unplugging the O2 sensor. If it goes away, then that is bad. The O2 sensor does modify the mixture at idle.

It's always good to double check any suspected engine electrical stuff operation at the DME plug as well when there are problems.
I'm not familiar with how the early cars control idle if they use something in addition to the bypass screw in the TB. It is also possible something could have been left unplugged or disconnected after doing the fuel system work. Check connectors and vacuum hoses for correct routing. Does the AFM test out correctly and consistently both when the car is cold and warmed up? I know the early cars are known to stumble when returned to idle ("drop and shudder"-bug in the DME maps).
That's all I can think of now.
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:03 AM
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