alignment problems

[honerboys]

i took the 83 to a local shop for an alignment - i had removed the engine for a spun bearing and as i was going to get an alignment when that was done i didn't mark any of the front end parts to get it close upon re-assembly - so it was way out of whack - the guy at the shop says he used to set up 944's for racing so i'm feeling pretty confident it will be done right even though it's not a porsche place - i picked the car up and the printout they give me says the caster is out of the specified range - when i asked him he said well it's hard to set that and the car will drive ok since caster is not that important - against my better judgement i said i'd drive the car and see how it handled - well the car was physically very hard to steer - if i turned the wheel right or left while moving the wheel would just stay where i put it - no returning to center - and it took actual effort to get it back to center - so i take it back and they roll their eyes like i don't know anything and agree to put it back on the rack - well when i pick it up again they say that all (toe,camber and caster) the settings were off again (i drove the car only 6 miles) but they reset everything including the caster and all were within specs - the car drove exactly the same as before - it is very hard to steer - at this point i should say this is a manual rack but i mean you are really pulling on the wheel to aim the car - my son's car is a manual rack also and while it's hard to turn when stopped it's easy while moving - this car is hard turning while moving - i returned to the shop again and was told there's probably something wrong with the manual rack - they couldn't find anything wrong with the suspension components (ball joints, tie rods, struts) so the only thing left is the rack - if the rack is bad why would all the settings be off after driving 6 miles ? - wouldn't the rack only affect the toe setting? - the wheel is easier to turn when the car is stopped then when it's moving - any ideas? - thanks

[968 GUY]

Need a different place. Talk to the manager...first look in the TM to find correct specs then make sure it is set to them. Get a readout before and after.
No good shop would say castor or camber does not matter.
If they cannot do a proper alignment, get your money back.

[968 GUY]

Oh yeah, did you replace rack bushings ?

[honerboys]

no i didn't replace bushings - i have been under the car (way more than in it) and shook everything - replaced right ball joint - it all seems tight now - very little play in rack when moving wheel left and right - i just don't see why the car is easier to steer sitting still then when moving - and also why all the settings would be off after 6 miles

[9FF]

Caster will affect steering self-centering and give you the problems you describe. The castor blocks at the rear of the a-arms should have plenty of adjustment to bring it to spec unless the suspension geometry has been drastically changed. Have you lowered the car or changed the overall size of the wheels?

[honerboys]

no it's all stock - it's not even that the wheel doesn't return to center - it's like it doesn't even want to - i have to use some force to get it back to center - like it's fighting going straight - below areb the printouts they gave me - top one is how they gave it tome the first time - bottom one is the second time - you can see how the before values on the bottom one have changed from the top ones after driving 6 miles - could even a really bad rack cause those values to change like that

[xsbank]

If they inspected the car before they aligned it, they should be able to see if there are any mechanical problems. Do the wheels turn when they are unweighted? I am asking because it could be a strut-bearing problem.
I just had an alignment after having rebuilt the suspension myself (struts, ball joints, bushings caster blocks and steering rack) and unless you have had collision damage, this shop is out to lunch. I took mine to a p-car specialist and the alignment is perfect. Why did they give you a different read-out the second time? Different alignment rack?
Is your manual rack a de-powered power rack or a proper manual?

[honerboys]

xsbank - i thought the same thing about the readouts - i didn't ask (too mad at the time) but i'm guessing they did use a different alignment rack the second time - still they should be very close - yes the wheels do turn easily when unweighted so it could be something up at the top of the strut - they also turn easier when car is stopped and on the ground - i've looked at the schematic diagrams - and i don't see an actual bearing just a rubber mount - could this be the problem? - the rack on the car is an original 83 manual rack

[xsbank]

I don't know why the wheel is hard to turn, but I think you've been had with your alignment - obviously if they used another rack and they see a difference, one of them has not been properly calibrated. Get your money back and run away.

[mikepellegrini]

What'd it drive like when you took it to the alignment shop? Before they did their thing? Was it hard to turn then, and didn't wanna center? If it wasn't driving like that pre-alignment, then obviously it's something they did.

What did the car drive like before you took the engine out? Is it possible the steering shaft is binding/rubbing on something? That's the only thing I can think of that might possibly be affected by an engine change.

And if you put it on jackstands, how does it turn then?

Caster is tough to set on early cars, because all you can do is move the rear mount back and forth - not really as exact as the later caster blocks. I had an alignment place tell me the caster on my 83 was not adjustable. I had to copy some pages out of the factory manual and take it to them before they'd admit they were wrong.

Most alignment places don't really have a clue what they're doing. Most all the tire shops, for example - pay minimum wage or close to it. For that kinda money, what kind of real mechanic are you gonna get? They're on par with oil change places.

I watched the tech at a Firestone shop work on my car once. He had big a looseleaf binder; you turn to the "Porsche 944" page and it tells you how to set up the machine for the car and what values and where the adjustments can be made.

But how many of these minimum wage mechanics actually understand what they're doing?

I had that same Firestone shop work on an 84 NA my son owned. We'd replaced the oil pan gasket and put on new struts, so it had to be aligned. We got the car back, and in short order, the car was wandering all over the road - scary. I took it back to the place and demanded them to correct it. Turns out the kid that did the alignment had forgotten to tighten the camber eccentric bolt. D'oh!

If the place you took your car to screwed it up, take it back and demand they fix it, and if they won't, demand a refund. And if they won't make it right or give you your money back, I'd look at suing them in small claims court, as well as filing a Better Business Bureau complaint.

[honerboys]

actually the first time i ever drove this car (except for around the block) was when i took it to get the alignment - i didn't try to set it anywhere close since i knew it was going right to the alignment place - the car drove badly on the way there but i could actually see the tires were not even close - so i can't say for sure whether it's something they did or not - turns easily on stands - i'm going to set it on ramps to load the wheels and have someone turn the wheels while i'm under it so maybe i can see what's going on - could the rubber bumpers on top of the struts be the problem? - this car has not been driven in a very long time but i wouldn't think they could hold back the steering so much - this place also told me caster was not adjustable until i insisted it was - then they said it was hard to set and it would cost more - i said ok but they didn't charge me any more - i had the 85 aligned at this same place and was satisfied with the results - plus the guy said he used to set these cars up for racing and knew them well ? - thanks for the suggestions

[Gawernator]

I would get my money from that shop and run awaaay

[mikepellegrini]

I dunno. I'd think if it turns easily on the stands, then it should be okay. If the strut bearings were that bad, I'd think they'd show it there as well as driving.

When strut bearings are bad, they often squeak as you turn the wheel (a painful, nasty squeal...).

If there's too much positive caster, it makes the wheel hard to turn. Wheel Alignment A Short Course

On another front, manual racks also have a tension adjustment set screw - red arrow, below.



It could be that it's just set too tight.

Here's a thread explaining how to make the adjustment: Clark's Garage Message Board :: View topic - Adjusting steering tension on early, manual cars

It could also be that you have a fast-ratio manual rack. I recall seeing a thread recently that Porsche offered a manual rack with a quicker response (closer to what you have with power steering) - which would also make it harder to turn. I wish I'd written down the part number of that.

The alignment shop dude sounds like an idiot if he didn't know the caster is adjustable. I'd ask for my money back and find a new shop that actually knows 944's.

[9FF]

...I wish I'd written down the part number of that...

Regular manual rack is 944 347 011 00
Sports manual rack is 944 347 015 00

It's a quick ratio originally fitted to early offset 944 turbo cup cars.

[968 GUY]

Is there aset screw to set the rack on center that could have been left in?
I know you said it turns freelywhen sitting still, but anything to check at this point can't hurt.
Still think the shop overlooked something though.

[9FF]

If the top strut bearings are worn it might not show up with the wheels in the air, only when there is some load on them.

Also check your camber, I had a shop put positive instead of negative at the front once. Do your wheels point in at the top?

Finally Did they touch the adjustment screw. It control a spring and disc that puts pressure on the input shaft. If they didn't know and screwed it all the way in you will have very stiff steering. Try turning it out a few turns and see if things improve.

Clutching at straws here, worth checking out though.

[mikepellegrini]

Originally Posted by 9FF

Regular manual rack is 944 347 011 00
Sports manual rack is 944 347 015 00

It's a quick ratio originally fitted to early offset 944 turbo cup cars.

Hey thanks! I tried searching for that thread and wasn't able to find it.

[924RACR]

2-3 degrees of caster is like nothing.

Sounds like something other than the alignment is the issue.

Have you ever greased the rack? This in addition to checking the free play adjustment and other things suggested... (sorry, late to thread, been racing).

[honerboys]

thank you all for the advice - i haven't been able to get out there and "play" with this yet - i'm thinking i'll undo the tie rod ends and see if i can figure out if anything is too tight - that way i can separate the rack from both struts and maybe locate what's happening under there - i have lots of spare parts so i guess i can start swapping out stuff (bearings and the like) and see if anything fixes it - while i'm not sure the shop aligned it correctly i don't want to go in there accusing them of a bad job when that might not be the case and it's actually something wrong on the car - so i'm going to try and eliminate everything but the alignment first - where on the rack is the part # - i looked at a spare power rack i have so i'd know where to look but i didn't see a # on it

[mytrplseven]

I hate to say it but this is one point where I believe that going to the Porsche shop is the way to get it right. Pay the extra and have them use the right equipement and experienced techs. I replaced all the stuff in my suspension while the oil pan gasket was being replaced and I got it close enough for the short ride to the dealership. They put it in proper alignment and it works right and only took 2 hours.