GOAL: Sell every part I have and do a 968 swap. Help will be needed!

JD159 · 09:46 AM

Update:

Check my other post about my lifter horror story as I've posted my resolution. Will still be using my current engine luckily.

flash968 · 10-09-2012, 06:14 PM

lol - this is a simple 3 step process:

1. remove radiator cap

2. drive 968 under radiator cap

3. install radiator cap

JD159 · 10-09-2012, 06:21 PM

What if I don't like the body styling of the 968? What If my car is in great shape aside from the motor? Maybe customized things on the interior? Full stereo?

Please leave the sell it and buy an x comments out of it.

flash968 · 10-09-2012, 07:21 PM

aesthetics may well play a role, but if you are looking to stick a 968 motor in a 944, you'd be better off just getting a 968. there is quite a bit involved if you want to do it right, and not have a cobbled together mess. a stereo is nothing. i have $4k in my stereo in my blue 968, but i would not hesitate for a minute to remove it and install it in another car if i thought i wanted to change over. in fact, much of this system came from another car of mine. i also have custom made recaros (not just reupholstered, but made at the factory, especially for me). i would pull them and put them in another car without hesitation

in the end, you are talking about a $2k car. how much you want to go through is up to you.

if you're stuck on the 944, so be it, but i think you're polishing a turd in considering such a swap. what will you have in the end?

that being said, i have done similar irrational things, and in fact have about $150k (not a typo - that's one hundred fifty thousand dollars) in my blue car, and have certainly gone way above and beyond what anybody would consider rational, so have fun and do what you want. i was merely entering the rational.

JD159 · 10-09-2012, 08:00 PM

Actually, there is an episode of a show called mythbusters where they do in fact polish a turd and make it quite shiny

.

I spent 6k on a top end rebuild. It's completely ruined 10k miles since being installed. I could of bought another. You spent 150k, you could of bought many many more. Aesthetically I prefer the 944. Sentimentality I also prefer my 944. This project will only be undertaken if I have enough value in parts to at least marginally offset the cost of an engine and parts. In the end, I will have a more powerful and more reliable 944 that I can enjoy for years to come.

flash968 · 10-10-2012, 06:04 AM

funny - i missed that one. i love that show.

i get the idea, and it's certainly smarter than trying to pump up a 944 motor. but, if you are worried about spending $10k, you're likely headed for another big disappointment. a decent used 968 motor will set you back half of that, and still take quite a bit to splice into a 944. a fresh 968 motor will cost you double your losses (i just did it). then you get to beef up the suspension and brakes, and all the rest so the car can handle the heavier and stronger motor.

it's a big job. it has been done, and it makes the car a lot more fun, but be sure you want to keep that car, because you'll never be able to sell it for anything more than you would a standard 944, and maybe not that much, as people don't generally like to pick up "project cars".

i used to do all different kinds of engine swaps when i had my shop. i constantly saw people who loved a particular car, ruin it by insisting on a "cool swap". no matter how well it was done, it seemed that about 2 years later they lost interest in the car. while the fun of the power was great, it changed the feel of the car, and with it lost the "love" they had for it.

think about it long and hard.

JD159 · 10-10-2012, 07:02 AM

Good episode really. Spent a lot of time polishing that turd.

I do see what your saying. Warning me of the work a head. I do realize the swap would cause some headache, but It does seem to be fairly straight forward with all the write ups out there. If I had a perfectly good running motor, and wanted to swap the 968 just for the power and the hell of it, I would agree with you. However, I have a busted S motor. A new motor is going to cost at least 2000 to 2500. Why would I pay that much for the troublesome S motor, that I've had such bad luck with, and then walk out with less power? If I were to rebuild, a new head alone if I could find another one is over 1k. My bottom end has to be disassembled. That seems like much more of a headache. I have seen 968 engines at the 3000 mark. Its a more reliable motor, more power, and fairly straight forward swap. 3k is the price I would want to pay. The S tranny is stronger than a n/a and should handle that power if driven appropriately for quite some time. Yes the suspension and breaks need to be done, but not if I'm driving in the city. Whether I'm travelling at 60km/hr with the S motor or a 968 motor, its irrelevant.

I do appreciate advice on the cost and work involved, but take into account my other options. New S motor, rebuild S motor, or 968 motor. Of course I could sell the car, but why sell a car with a perfectly straight body?

flash968 · 10-10-2012, 07:29 AM

well, if you're going to keep it indefinitely, then resale value has no meaning, and an engine swap won't hurt you.

if you are willing to to the work, and the maintenance from that point forward, then you won't have to worry about a shop saying "i'm not touching that" for fear of you blaming something on them. that is a very common problem with pretty much anything significantly non-stock

i get the cost issues, but i think you are going to be hard pressed to find a motor for $3k that won't need to be gone through. remember that the 968 motor is much more complicated than the 944 motor. the variocam job alone will set you back over $1k, requires special tools, and has to be done by the time you get to 100k miles. at that point you might as well pull the head and give it a valve job, as that normally has to be done right about the same time. a $3k motor will likely be right there, and end up costing you another $2k to get into the car.

beyond that, the 968 is very finicky about exhaust. the downtubes and cat are tuned for the dual resonant intake manifold pulses. messing with those really screws up the torque curve. you could easily put that motor in the car and lose half of your power gain.

don't get me wrong. i think the 968 motor in a 944 is a great idea. it's just not something to be approached with the idea of doing it on the cheap, as you will almost certainly not be happy.

my guess is that, by the time you are done, you will have spent at least $10k getting the car all set up with a 968 motor

JD159 · 08:36 AM

On the flip side. Lets look at putting an S motor back in. Find a used head, probably near 100k, will have to be rebuild, might not have tensioner done, and my bottom end has to be rebuilt. I'm in for the same road it seems. Hence my leaning to the 968 engine. My uncle who is a big chevy guys says throw a v8 in it. I'm saying throw a 968 into it. Its much more bolt in from what I have read. Do you know of any resources that help with the swap?

I'm just not seeing how you get to 10k. The top end doesn't NECESSARILY have to be rebuilt at 100k? If that were so, anybody with 200k on the motor has had TWO top end jobs? I just find that hard to believe. There is a few youtube videos about it, write ups, guides from other members, it truly seems to be fairly bolt in/plug and play.

I met a guy at a concours who had 250k on his motor, no rebuild work done, its his DD and he drives it in the snow. Fine, at 100k in needs a 1k variocam job. This motor also has a dynamic tensioner, meaning no expensive tool or shop charging you through the nose every 45k for a belt job. The pro's and cons seem pretty balanced, and with my options sounds like a no brainer. At this point, I feel it IS the most cost effective option for me if I'm keeping that car.

Gawernator · Gawernator's Garage

If you had the engine apart at 100,000 miles, why wouldn't you rebuild it? It's going to be getting tired and need a rebuild sooner rather than later.

flash968 · 10-10-2012, 09:01 AM

i understand and appreciate the dilemma.

i just drove a 968 with a chevy V8 installed by arguably one of the best shops doing that. it was a pig. i couldn't get out of the car fast enough. plenty of power, but everything else about the car and the installation sucked. $22k into that one, and it needed another $15k to get it reasonable to drive. very bad idea. in the end the owner pulled it back out and went back to the 968 motor.

after 9 years of playing with nothing but the 968s, we have found that every one of the heads needs to be done by that point. without fail, they are all losing quite a bit of power due to worn guides and valves. typically compression is down by about 15%, and all due to the top end. the head gaskets have also all deteriorated at this point in time. it is incredibly common to see them fall apart in your hand when you pull the head. if you poke around the 968 guys, you will find that there are not many who have not had to go through the top end at that mileage. the variocam is a given at that point. the pads, particularly the lower one, wears out right about at 100k miles. there are of course exceptions, but that works both ways. mine were half worn at 50k, and that engine was meticulously maintained, and always on synthetic oil with plenty of ZDDP.

as for expensive tools, it all depends on how good you want it. while the timing belt tension is covered by the hydraulic tensioner, the balance belt tension is pretty critical on the 968. some people need that tool. timing the cams is very critical to the level of performance, and that requires dial indicators, and a couple of other specialized tools as well.

the 968 motor is really not much like the 944 motor when it comes to maintenance. we constantly hear horror stories about shops that think they are the same, only to find out otherwise. it's a great motor, but it takes about twice the maintenance and investment to maintain as a 944 motor does. an increasing number of parts are also now no longer available.

i would spend some time poking around 968forums.com to learn more about the engine, before diving into what could be a much more expensive project that you might be prepared for. forewarned is forearmed, as they say.

best of luck getting it done cheaply though. i know of at least 2 guys recently who paid more for motors than that, and barely got them in there running, but they also know they will be in there for a top end soon.

i feel your pain, and i think you are probably right about the "best solution", but it won't be cheap.

JD159 · 10-10-2012, 09:12 AM

Agreed. Nothing is cheap. Hence my entire top end rebuilt investment on the S lol. My hope was to have it last another 100k miles, made it about 1/10 of the way. When referring to the difference between 944's and the 968 engine and scarce parts, are you referring to the 8v? If the 968 is ANYTHING like the 16v 944, I'm fully aware of part availability and cost to fix. The cost to fix the S is crazy, so it can't be much more than 968 ownership. Hence why I contemplated a turbo swap. 8 valves is better/cheaper than 16, but the turbo adds another stack of things that can fail. So I thought S2, but why go S2 swap and not 968, didn't make sense

Again, this is for the future and I do appreciate the advice. Its not a project that would be happening in a few weeks. I need to recoup some money first. Once I've got a stack of cash I'll invest more time into finding the engine/parts needed. At the moment, I'm looking for recommendations on what to do with the parts. Sell the bottom end as a whole or part it out piece for piece? I've got good valves and good springs, sell the top end as a whole broken piece with the parts or get it disassembled?