New Member/First Questions

[Halfkiddio]

I am building an 84 NA 944 for track use and I am looking to upgrade the brakes and wheels. I will be using an ls-based engine for power, so I will be needing all the stopping power I can get. Any ideas/options I can do? I found the Wilwood front 4 piston caliper setup but I would also like to upgrade the rear. I would also like to know the maximum width and tire size you can run front and rear. Any tips and leads will be appreciated!

P.S. Hello! I am new here so don't go too hard on me. I have used the search function for the brakes and I haven't found an answer to the track use question.

[fiat22turbo]

Stock brakes are more than adequate with proper pads and perhaps some extra cooling. There's an issue with the firewall flexing that can impact braking performance/feel as we'll as the clutch master failing. Some bracing will help.

Braided stainless steel lines and good, race ready pads with high temp racing fluid will finish the system off.

That said, most move to the 944 turbo 4-piston calipers because they think they are better (in the hands of a driver that can modulate them well enough, they are)

On the 924board.org they discovered that the Volvo 242 4-piston calipers bolt up to the 924 turbo and 944 uprights and rotors. The trick is getting the lines connected properly as Volvo runs a dual braking system.

Finally, there's some great info over on the Texas Performance Comcepts website and forum on the V8 swaps, including brakes, etc.

[John_AZ]

Great reply.
I may never need this information but am impressed with the detail.
I hope the OP is not a bot.

J_AZ

[v2rocket_aka944]

It seems the presiding opinion regarding those Wilwood brakes is a resounding...meh.
From what I could tell in my own research, those who did the upgrade weren't exactly bowled over by the results.

You could change to 951 brakes all around for about the same money, which would give you even better braking ability. That said, the NA brakes are pretty good, and the spec guys using them with "hot pads" is proof of their capabilities.

[Halfkiddio]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

Great reply.
I may never need this information but am impressed with the detail.
I hope the OP is not a bot.

J_AZ

I am most definitely not a bot lol.

Originally Posted by fiat22turbo

Stock brakes are more than adequate with proper pads and perhaps some extra cooling. There's an issue with the firewall flexing that can impact braking performance/feel as we'll as the clutch master failing. Some bracing will help.

Braided stainless steel lines and good, race ready pads with high temp racing fluid will finish the system off.

That said, most move to the 944 turbo 4-piston calipers because they think they are better (in the hands of a driver that can modulate them well enough, they are)

On the 924board.org they discovered that the Volvo 242 4-piston calipers bolt up to the 924 turbo and 944 uprights and rotors. The trick is getting the lines connected properly as Volvo runs a dual braking system.

Finally, there's some great info over on the Texas Performance Comcepts website and forum on the V8 swaps, including brakes, etc.

Thanks for the reply! I have been slowly researching things I will need to upgrade to support the power the v8 will be making. This has definitely helped!

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

It seems the presiding opinion regarding those Wilwood brakes is a resounding...meh.
From what I could tell in my own research, those who did the upgrade weren't exactly bowled over by the results.

You could change to 951 brakes all around for about the same money, which would give you even better braking ability. That said, the NA brakes are pretty good, and the spec guys using them with "hot pads" is proof of their capabilities.

Do the 951 calipers bolt right up or will I have to change out the spindles and hubs for them to fit?

And I have another question. I will need to upgrade the transaxle to a turbo spec one, and I am trying to figure out what year turbo I need to get one from that matches to an 84.

[fiat22turbo]

951 brakes require different front uprights, rotors, calipers and struts as the spacing changed slightly, though some have modified their 944 struts to fit the 951 uprights. The 951 rear calipers bolt up to the stock rear brake location (whether steel or aluminum rear trailing arms) and the rotors only need to be changed to match.

If you want to keep your current wheel offset, you'll need uprights from an 86 951. If you want to change to the late offset solution (and open up the wheels available to you), you'll need to change the front uprights from a 87+951 and the rear trailing arms and rear shocks to the aluminum units from an 87+ car along with the brake parts. Basically finding a donor turbo car is your best bet. The Turbo car might even be a better chassis to work with, but then again the 84 chassis is lighter, IMO.

Like I said though, the stock brakes are more than adequate, even with a V8 (properly built 944 NA's and 951's can carry enough speed through the corners that their terminal velocity at the braking zones are similar to V8 powered cars). Basically, if you can lock up the tires consistently you don't need more braking capacity unless the brakes start to fade after multiple stops. A buddy ran an 84 in a 24-hour race with the stock brakes and not only out-broke nearly everyone into the corners, the brakes themselves held up just fine with only a pad change half-way through the race. They were using racing brake pads, lines and cooling ducts routed from the nose.

Another thing to think about with Turbo brakes? Rebuild parts are getting harder to find.

For a V8, most people find the gearing of the turbo transaxle not entirely the best, especially 1st and 5th gear. All of the transaxles for the 944 will bolt up for your car and the turbo units are stronger internally with some available with cooling and limited slip differentials. The ultimate in terms of strength would be the AOR transaxle from the Turbo S:

Transaxle - General Information, Codes, and Gear Ratios

And here's some info on the V8 conversion:

How to Convert the PORSCHE 924 / 944 to V8 power

and here's a place to find some of the required parts:

newindex

Good luck!

[v2rocket_aka944]

For the turbo trans in an early car, it will bolt up if it does NOT have a trans cooler.

If it does have the cooler, you will need to make an adapter plate for the passenger side mount and oval out the bolt hole in the upper mount...BTDT

[PorscheChef]

If I may... I have a few of these cars and I have been playing with them for years... I have to ask why everyone is so hot about the V8 conversions? You could buy a 951 and tune them upwards to 400-500 RWH. From my understanding, with the money you would spend on a conversion, you could achieve this. I'm too much of a purist I guess to "bastardize" a Porsche with Chevy power, when you can get the power from what's there. I'd buy a Chevy if that's what I was looking for. But, what do I know?


(All unsolicited opinions are given free of charge.)

[fiat22turbo]

Because when you torch the turbo motor because the cylinder liners failed or the #4 rod puked, the cost to rebuild a 951 bottom end is nearly the same as a LS1 conversion.

Plus when someone allows the timing belt to break and give up on the car, what are you going to do with a nearly free 944 chassis and a junk, 150hp motor? Spend $2000 to convert it to a 951 and still have a bastardized car? Or buy a Chebby LSJuan and drop into the engine bay and enjoy the car the way you want to.

Personally? I'd rather convert my 924 to an Audi 20VT motor over a V8, but I understand the thinking, especially when you consider how little many so-called Porsche purists care about the 924 and its sibling the 944 because the motor is in the wrong (correct) place.

[v2rocket_aka944]

Originally Posted by PorscheChef

If I may... I have a few of these cars and I have been playing with them for years... I have to ask why everyone is so hot about the V8 conversions? You could buy a 951 and tune them upwards to 400-500 RWH. From my understanding, with the money you would spend on a conversion, you could achieve this. I'm too much of a purist I guess to "bastardize" a Porsche with Chevy power, when you can get the power from what's there. I'd buy a Chevy if that's what I was looking for. But, what do I know?


(All unsolicited opinions are given free of charge.)

IMO, the biggest reason for the V8 aside from reliability and cheaper parts is...

...driving the car below ~3000RPM.

If the 944 is your fun, weekend/nice weather sports car then having a laggy/low power motor is OK because its part of the experience...and can be lovely.

But when you are daily driving, in traffic, between lights, etc, having to wait for anything to happen can be annoying. Having power available immediately off idle is very, very nice to have, and ~2x+ displacement is very good for that. And before anyone mentions the 968 conversion...that motor suffers the same lack of low-end as the 2.5 - totally gutless below 4000rpm.

[9FF]

Originally Posted by fiat22turbo

Because when you torch the turbo motor because the cylinder liners failed or the #4 rod puked, the cost to rebuild a 951 bottom end is nearly the same as a LS1 conversion. So you can build an LS1 conversion for the cost of a good used 944 short block? I paid $350 for mine, about the going rate around here, please let me know where I can get the conversion done for that amount.

Plus when someone allows the timing belt to break and give up on the car, what are you going to do with a nearly free 944 chassis and a junk, 150hp motor? Spend $2000 to convert it to a 951 and still have a bastardized car? Or buy a Chebby LSJuan and drop into the engine bay and enjoy the car the way you want to. Buy another na motor, you find them for under $600 all the time, or just rebuild the head, still only about $800.

I've seen some bad conversions done for cheap but really, a good conversion, done properly and safely with a used engine on an na will cost you close to $10k.

...

[v2rocket_aka944]

Where are you paying $800 for a rebuilt NA head?

That's almost 5x what I paid for the most recent hot tank/mill flat/new guides/stem seals.

[9FF]

Where are you paying $800 for a rebuilt NA head?



That's almost 5x what I paid for the most recent hot tank/mill flat/new guides/stem seals.

Yeh, I had some extra work done on it, as you do WYIT

I suppose if it was just replacing a couple if valves, guides and seals it would be a lot cheaper. If you got what you said done you got a great deal.

My point is that it's just not that expensive to fix or replace the things that go wrong even for spun rods/bent valves, plenty of cheap spares about.

[fiat22turbo]

Originally Posted by 9FF

Yeh, I had some extra work done on it, as you do WYIT

I suppose if it was just replacing a couple if valves, guides and seals it would be a lot cheaper. If you got what you said done you got a great deal.

My point is that it's just not that expensive to fix or replace the things that go wrong even for spun rods/bent valves, plenty of cheap spares about.

Not denying any of that. I've built and repaired lots of 4-cylinder turbo motors and still want to build a turbocharged 4-cylinder powered Cobra replica (complete with factory Shelby valve cover) to mess with the hardcore folks because I'm a kid at heart.

Currently I'm in the midst of replacing the turbo on my 951 and I'm stuck waiting for parts to come back from ceramic coating because Porsche decided that having the turbo under the intake on a crossflow head was a worthwhile decision. So to keep the intake from heatsoaking to useless levels, I had it coated as well as the exhaust side of the turbo. It doesn't help that the 62mm Garrett turbo on this thing barely fits under the intake manifold.

The bastard 924 will likely get swapped to an Audi motor of some sort because the 2.0L is just a dead end and the car will be easier to sell with something that has some guts in the nose.

However, if you're faced with rebuilding a 4-cylinder (even a turbo motor or have a fire damaged engine bay) or convert it to a V8 and make as much as or more power out of the box? Guess what, some people are going to choose that and that is a personal choice.

Given how good a motor the LSx is, I can't say that's a huge issue, though personally the LSx swap has been done to death all over the automotive world, but again that's my opinion and doesn't resolve the fact that the end result is faster than a stock 944 NA.

[9FF]

Originally Posted by fiat22turbo

...The bastard 924 will likely get swapped to an Audi motor of some sort because the 2.0L is just a dead end and the car will be easier to sell with something that has some guts in the nose....

Audi 5cyl fits nice, this ones in an 85 and produces 720hp+ must be a hoot to drive.

[944tothefloor]

Originally Posted by 9FF

Audi 5cyl fits nice, this ones in an 85 and produces 720hp+ must be a hoot to drive.

How did he not clean that hood latch??????

[Halfkiddio]

The reason I am going with an LS1 is because I got a non-running 84 for 500 bucks from a friend of mine. It has been sitting for over 2 years out in the open not running. I don't want to dump money into a motor that I don't really know anything about (total noob) or know how long it will last once I do get it running. And the car will be a track car, so it would be nice to have enough power to get out of its own way on the track. Right now I am focusing on getting the engine in the car and running, and then focusing on supporting the power. However I know basically nothing about what all you can do to the 944 to upgrade it, so I came here. And I have definitely gotten some really good info about what I will need to do to make this a track setup 944 with a v8 in it! A small reason I want the LS is because I just LOVE the sound it makes when you open them up

[fiat22turbo]

If you want to get on track. I'd suggest fixing the 84 up for Spec 944 racing:

Welcome to 944-Spec racing

You'll have a lot more fun racing against similar cars/drivers. You can also race the car in ChumpCar/LeMons races under their race car classes to really get some seat time.

The motor itself is actually fairly simple to work on once you start working on it. Start with seeing if you can get good compression from the engine before pulling the motor, changing the belts, water pump and hoses and see if you can get it running.

Post some pics of the car and engine bay and we can see what is what.

That's what I would do at least, but like has been said, to each their own.

Good luck with it!