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I thought I finally had it..stumbling acceleration

After changing the AFM, TPS, DME, fuel injectors, vacuum lines, ignition system, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, fuel filter, strainer, air cleaner, oxygen sensor, ref sensor, fuel injector connectors, Oil cap seal, AOS seals and catalytic converter I still have a stumbling acceleration problem during normal acceleration.

On Friday I did another vacuum leak check and really looked deep into the guts of the motor. I noticed bubbles coming out of the hose where it fits onto the AOS. So I pulled the intake manifold to get at it and in the process, found 2 of the 4 intake manifold gaskets weren't in the proper orientation. The little notch in the gasket was not where the injector sprays into the head and so I was convinced that this, plus the AOS leak, was the final solution (poor choice of words, I know).

Today I put everything back together and it still stumbles while accelerating. WOT works fine and it idles just as it should. At this point, I'm simply out of answers.

I don't dare take the car to the dealership where they charge $135 an hour and don't really have a 944 tech in their shop. So now I'm wondering what the next step will be.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-19-2014, 05:00 PM
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Plug wires? or were they included in the ignition system? Same with the coil.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:10 PM
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Very strange indeed.
It would appear that you have covered your bases. Fuel, and ignition, look to be the most probable culprits. Coil or fuel pump is my guess, and bare in mind that a new component may be faulty right out of the box... but unlikely to be malfunctioning in the same manner as the replaced part.
I see you said you replaced ignition system, so I assume you did the coil also...

It would be nice to see what your fuel pressure gauge does while you are experiencing this "stumbling". Obviously the hose is too short, so you might have to get creative... maybe put a camera on it?

Also, can you describe the stumbling?

I noticed you still have the original fuel lines... maybe an insurance claim would fix it.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:11 PM
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There are different types of hesitations that could help narrow it to either electrical, fuel or vacuum, unless it is worse (i.e. the motor). Give this a try:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFgQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twistedandes.com%2Fforo%2Fatt achment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D66395%26d%3D125088281 8&ei=IjGaU7XSLZGWyATu2IGYBQ&usg=AFQjCNG4HO1PgpZGJunCcN68kicBtT0H3w&bvm=bv.68911936,d.aWw
Old 07-19-2014, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepellegrini View Post
Plug wires? or were they included in the ignition system? Same with the coil.
replaced the wires with bosch/beru and coil, both used and didn't change the symptoms.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-19-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volhv View Post
Very strange indeed.
It would appear that you have covered your bases. Fuel, and ignition, look to be the most probable culprits. Coil or fuel pump is my guess, and bare in mind that a new component may be faulty right out of the box... but unlikely to be malfunctioning in the same manner as the replaced part.
I see you said you replaced ignition system, so I assume you did the coil also...

It would be nice to see what your fuel pressure gauge does while you are experiencing this "stumbling". Obviously the hose is too short, so you might have to get creative... maybe put a camera on it?

Also, can you describe the stumbling?

I noticed you still have the original fuel lines... maybe an insurance claim would fix it.
I like how you think Actually, I replaced the fuel pump and FPR and did all the recommended fuel system checks before and after and still no change other than new parts. I replaced the coil with a used one and tested the continuity of the plug wires before I installed them with a new cap, rotor and plugs (properly gapped). I pulled the NGK plugs the other day and they read perfect. Just to be sure, I replaced them with Bosch Copper + and still no change. The TPS is new and you can hear the click as you move the throttle off full closed position. All the parts I changed from known good cars had no effect.

I'm wondering if it would make any sense to treat the new TPS as if it was used and test the coil and other components that were replaced to verify their function, but each time I changed something, there was no change.

The stumbling is simply that: the engine falters noticeably while under normal acceleration. It doesn't feel like a classic ignition miss and the engine idles smooth and at WOT it rocks. I suppose I could put an extra length of fuel line in the line that goes to the fuel pressure gauge I have connected to the fuel rail and put it up under the windshield wiper to see if it changes in time with the hesitations.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.

Last edited by mytrplseven; 07-19-2014 at 06:29 PM..
Old 07-19-2014, 06:25 PM
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It's just so strange... your engine sounds like it has so many new or rebuilt parts, that it should run better than most of the other ones out there......

Something when stressed, or overheated, just might start malfunctioning. But obviously you can't relentlessly use the shotgun approach and trow part after part at it.

Can you recreate the stumble during a no load condition, while the car is stationary? If not, and this is a shot in the dark, maybe it's a drivetrain or clutch issue?

Hopefully someone will chime in with a solution.
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Old 07-19-2014, 06:52 PM
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Weird

Sounds like you have covered about everything. It sounds most like a vacuum leak.

Decades ago I had a 356B with one spark plug wire laying against another plug wire. The two would induce a current in each other out of sync causing the engine to run rough. The fix was simple, separate the wires far enough apart that they didn't induce a mild misfire in the other cylinder out of sync. Your wires have separation from each other I hope? Good luck finding your problem it will be interesting hearing what it is.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:56 PM
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Have you tuned up your AFM? Towards the end of this there is an AFM cleaning and repair procedure. http://www.clarks-garage.com/pdf-manual/elect-22.pdf
Old 07-20-2014, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnolan View Post
Have you tuned up your AFM? Towards the end of this there is an AFM cleaning and repair procedure. http://www.clarks-garage.com/pdf-manual/elect-22.pdf
I did tune up the AFM and actually replaced it with another just to be sure and it came out of a car with no issues. Still no change and I tuned it up as well. Very challenging problem.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-20-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88Silver924S View Post
Sounds like you have covered about everything. It sounds most like a vacuum leak.

Decades ago I had a 356B with one spark plug wire laying against another plug wire. The two would induce a current in each other out of sync causing the engine to run rough. The fix was simple, separate the wires far enough apart that they didn't induce a mild misfire in the other cylinder out of sync. Your wires have separation from each other I hope? Good luck finding your problem it will be interesting hearing what it is.
Interesting that you would mention this as, in the interest of being neat, all my wires are running parallel to each other using the wire looms and never considered this as a possibility. Since the coil I replaced the original one with was used as well, I've ordered a new Bosch unit and when it comes in early next week, I'll check into the wire routing as well.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-20-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volhv View Post
It's just so strange... your engine sounds like it has so many new or rebuilt parts, that it should run better than most of the other ones out there......

Something when stressed, or overheated, just might start malfunctioning. But obviously you can't relentlessly use the shotgun approach and trow part after part at it.

Can you recreate the stumble during a no load condition, while the car is stationary? If not, and this is a shot in the dark, maybe it's a drivetrain or clutch issue?

Hopefully someone will chime in with a solution.
I have a new clutch and the transaxle was pulled at the same time for servicing. When the hesitation occurs, the RPM do not fluctuate so I don't see the drive train as an issue, especially since I can go to WOT and it really moves, and without a hesitation. It doesn't do it without a load. Thanks for the thought.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-20-2014, 06:49 AM
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How does the car run during warmup? Does it miss or stumble for a few minutes? Are the clamps tight on the ICV and AOS lines? Are the lines new as old ones could be cracked and leaking vacuum? What about the icv line clamp down under the intake near the dipstick tube.
Old 07-20-2014, 07:08 AM
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If not these lines what about the vacuum lines on the left side of the engine compartment for the fuel vapor recovery, climate control, and heater control valve, etc? As a test cut off the end of the hose and reattach and also make sure all of the clamps are there and tight. There is also a vapor canister in the LF wheel well behind the plastic fender. Also try spraying starting fluid around the intake gaskets and vacuum lines to see if the engine surges because of a vacuum leak.

I am guessing vacuum as if it were electrical or fuel it would get worse under full throttle.
Old 07-20-2014, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnolan View Post
How does the car run during warmup? Does it miss or stumble for a few minutes? Are the clamps tight on the ICV and AOS lines? Are the lines new as old ones could be cracked and leaking vacuum? What about the icv line clamp down under the intake near the dipstick tube.
Actually, the car stumbles somewhat whether cold or up to normal operating temp. I just finished pulling off the intake manifold and tightened up the line that was loose on the top of the AOS and checking all the other connections. New intake manifold gaskets and AOS seals had been replaced last year. New silicone vacuum lines and still no change.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-20-2014, 11:05 AM
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There is also a vapor canister in the LF wheel well behind the plastic fender from DJNOLAN.

I am guessing vacuum as if it were electrical or fuel it would get worse under full throttle.[/QUOTE]

I looked at my car and I see that there is a vacuum control input line from the throttle body into the shutoff valve (H on the diagram) for the canister. I'm wondering if I clamp that line off, It will isolate that part of the system so as to eliminate it from consideration. I assume that valve is normally in the "off" state, right?
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.

Last edited by mytrplseven; 07-20-2014 at 11:49 AM..
Old 07-20-2014, 11:11 AM
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Check your valve springs. A broken one will cause a miss under acceleration.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:06 PM
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Holy Cow!!

I decided to follow the quick and easy recommendations of SYSGEN and KONAKAT (on that other forum) and disconnect the O2 sensor. It is a brand new Bosch 3 wire unit and don't know what it's disconnect might be masking, but IT WORKED!! The car runs like it should in all RPM ranges, regardless of the throttle application.

The only concern I have now is that the idle cycles +- 200 rpm. I'm 100% sure that there are no more vacuum leaks so whatever it is, I can live with it, just to get the car running like it should. Now on to recovering the front seats.

Thanks to all of you whom offered your inputs. I appreciate your involvement and insights. I'm sure that any one of the ideas could have caused the symptoms I was experiencing.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-21-2014, 09:06 AM
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Stock chips and DME? FQS switch in stock #0 position?

Check the wiring for O2-sensor. It's a shield-coax cable to the DME. I've seen many cars where people used vampire-taps to extract the O2-signal for an AFR gauge. However, this shorts out the O2-sensor signal by connecting the centre of the coax-cable to the shield.

At the DME, check for continuity between the O2-sensor's centre signal-wire and its shielding. Shouldn't be any. Also wiggle the O2-sensor cable to verify there isn't a short somewhere along the way.
Old 07-25-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Stock chips and DME? FQS switch in stock #0 position?

Check the wiring for O2-sensor. It's a shield-coax cable to the DME. I've seen many cars where people used vampire-taps to extract the O2-signal for an AFR gauge. However, this shorts out the O2-sensor signal by connecting the centre of the coax-cable to the shield.

At the DME, check for continuity between the O2-sensor's centre signal-wire and its shielding. Shouldn't be any. Also wiggle the O2-sensor cable to verify there isn't a short somewhere along the way.
Stock DME and chip, new O2 sensor and wiring inputs checked to connectors and shield. Tomorrow, another shot at possible vacuum leak (3rd time but this time with chemicals). No extraneous or peripheral devices are wired into the car.
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3 944's, 2 Boxsters and one Caman S, and now one 951 turbo. Really miss the Cayman.

Some people try to turn back their "odometers." Not me. I want people to know 'why' I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Old 07-25-2014, 02:09 PM
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