Anyone have a left side euro "S" cam? I need one like yesterday!

[rich]

I found the cause of the distruction of my last two engines. It looks like my left cam broke. The end must have spun so the mark was in the wrong phase.

I think when I assembled my second to last engine is when it broke. I had about 200 miles on it when it failed. I think the cam end broke and spun out of phase causing the right cam to go out of phase causing the valves the collide with the piston. Then I had the head repaired, changed the block and broken piston and didn't catch the cam trouble. I lined up the marks for the belt and tried to fire it up. The engine never even fired and I broke a piston cranking it with the starter.

So, I need a left side cam! My engine is a 1980 euro spec "S" M/28/11

I'm supposed to attend the Rocket City Ramble in Huntsville AL in 3 weeks.

Can you help a brother out?

I also need to do a leak down now. I may have bent valves in my fresh heads.

[rich]

Here it is.

[rich]

[N2O-SHARK]

I believe the 1980 S should have been a non interference motor. Even with a broke cam it should not have had piston / valve collisions.

Unless you have a 5.0L bottom with poorly flycut pistons. Your valves should be okay.

I will have an extra set s S Cams in a couple weeks when my new "S+" cams arrive. Doesn't help you today but if you're still looking then, I'll hook you up cheap.

[Danglerb]

80 to 83 Euro S has the same cam lift with a slightly longer duration on the 84 to 86. If you can't find a matching pair of Euro S cams, I would pop in a set of 79 cams until its convenient to put in Euro S.

I sent a couple emails, but finding a single left (driver side?) Euro S cam may not be easy.

[Danglerb]

Apparently the left cam is the one that breaks, same thing happened to one of my friends I emailed. Left cam with a broken gear thing. Explains why 928 gets $450 for the right cam and $650 for the left.

Any chance you could repair the cam, maybe weld or solder some kind of sleeved coupling?

[rich]

Originally Posted by N2O-SHARK

I believe the 1980 S should have been a non interference motor. Even with a broke cam it should not have had piston / valve collisions.

Unless you have a 5.0L bottom with poorly flycut pistons. Your valves should be okay.

I will have an extra set s S Cams in a couple weeks when my new "S+" cams arrive. Doesn't help you today but if you're still looking then, I'll hook you up cheap.

Where are you getting the "S+ " cams?

[rhjames]

rich--

you could get in touch with John Milledge at JME (he's got a website), and look into cams from him---

Mike (danglerb) can point you directly to John.


it's 944 stuff, but it's a direct bolt-in for your 16V engine.



--Russ

[rich]

Originally Posted by rhjames

rich--

you could get in touch with John Milledge at JME (he's got a website), and look into cams from him---

Mike (danglerb) can point you directly to John.


it's 944 stuff, but it's a direct bolt-in for your 16V engine.



--Russ

Very cool, Thanks, I'll search for his site and call him tomorrow.

[Danglerb]

JME is where N2O is getting his cams, but they don't have cores for the 928. You have to supply a cam which they weld ($85/lobe) and then grind down to the new profile ($450/cam).

[rich]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

JME is where N2O is getting his cams, but they don't have cores for the 928. You have to supply a cam which they weld ($85/lobe) and then grind down to the new profile ($450/cam).

Shnikeee! Are you saying 85.00 X 8 lobes plus 450.00 for the re-grind?

= $1130.00 per cam?

[Danglerb]

Eyup, its a bit pricey. Nothing is cheaper or faster than ordering a used one from 928Intl for $650, unless you could pry one away from one of us that have them for ourselves.

I've got a Euro motor sitting in my garage waiting to be torn down and rebuilt before I planned to use it. I've also got a set of 79 cams sitting on a shelf waiting to be used as cores for welded S+ cams. If your stuck PM me and maybe we can work something out.

I have heard mixed things about billet steel cams and the lifters in our motors, but some at least of the good cam guys say they have steel and treatments for it so it would work. Billet isn't a word typically used in the same sentence as cheap though.

[rich]

I called Barry Cams here in MN. He thinks he can weld up my US cam and cut it to match my broken euro cam. $ 300.00 if he can do it. I'm boxing them now to ship today.

I spoke with Mark this morning. He doesn't have any cams in stock. He said they have been running welded cams for years with no problems. He said to just watch idling the engine too much.

Are those 79 euro cams the came profile as the euro "S" in the M 28/11 engines or are the US profile? I think I know where I can get a set of 79 euro cams if there the same.

[Danglerb]

AFAIK 78/79 have no differences between US and Euro, 79 cam profile is between the Euro S and US cams.

This info is in I think the WSM.

78 to 79 all models M28/01,02,03,04 cam grind is 155.07 *** good
80 to 82 all models M28/09, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16 cam grind is 173.01 ***lame
80 to 83 Row S M28/11, 12 cam grind is 187.03 *** better
84 to 86 Row S M28/21, 22 cam grind is 211.00 *** best
80 to 84 S USA, Japan, Canada M28/19, 20 cam grind is 203.00 *** between lame and good.

Grind number is stamped on the rear of the cam, number shown is for the 1-4 bank, other bank is a "similar" number.

The S+ profile from JME looks like the limit for a streetable cam, just how close remains to be seen, but it might be good for 25 to 50 more rwhp over the Euro S. OTOH it may not idle below 1000 rpm which could be pesky to get through smog.

[rich]

Nice info. Thanks, BTW: I just did a leak down. At least 5 bent exhaust valves. So much for non interference... Remember, I never even started the engine the last time. These heads are fresh.

[N2O-SHARK]

I ended up using Webcams. About a third the price of JME. Longer wait though. Sent in my extra 79 cams to be welded up. The "S+" are .503 lift on intake and exhaust with 242 duration @ .050" lift. I did have to order the JME race valve springs. Putting in new teflon valve seals while I'm in there. I just had the valve seats done and heads ported some more.

My goal is 375RWHP out of a 5.0L Euro hybrid. Can't justify the cost of a stroker yet. Even with a couple bottom blocks now and all the head / intake work, I'm way, way below the stroker price range. I'm using the UTCIS-PT WUR replacement from UnwiredTools to program and compensate for lack of vacuum @ idle.

The car has also started a diet..the silly speakers are gone..

[Danglerb]

Webcams was able to use the JME profile or made their own?

Must spill all details.

375rwhp is asking a lot of a CIS system, they are typically about 10 hp less than MAF motors, and 310 is about the most from a MAF based 5.0L hybrid. If the S+ is good for even 25 more rwhp that would be very good, around 350 rwhp is most I think is likely without bumping the redline or adding cubes.

[N2O-SHARK]

Webcams used the Euro S base grind and adapted it. I gave them all the specs I could on my engine and they said they have it handled. We shall see. I gave them the JME specs, but they did not show actual grind slope.

CIS Can handle 450RWHP with little effort. Check with Carl at 928MS.
@310RWHP most hybrids do not have ported heads, gasket matched intakes and exhaust, MSDS headers X-pipe with about 18"s of 2.5" exhaust (No cats) straight into free flowing afterburners with turn downs (NO rear piping). Intake runners have been worked as well. Then add the MSD, better wires and plugs. Also no A/C, no smog pump.

I also now have the CIS reworked with larger progressive fuel slits. Combined with much larger 3AN fuel lines. With the unwired WUR I can control A/F over both RPM and vacuum. I think the bigger cams will make more than another 25hp, more like +35RWHP. Especially with the race springs, allowing a 7200rpm redline (Accourding to JME). Also my intake is now less restrictive as it ends with dual high flow folters on the ends of the air box. The cone filters are sealed to the hood vents for cool air charge.

I'm gonna get on a soapbox for a minute and rant. There is so much more power available from the 16V CIS system than folks give it credit for. I'm tired of everyone saying you should go US '85+. MY 5.0L Euro S will have more power than any other NA 5.0L US model I have seen. And it sounds like sex, like a SBC with a lopey cam sporting a german accent. PLus it's lighter than an S4.

When you get all the pieces together you get slightly larger gains than the sum of each part. It's really hard to gauge how much more power you get from just adding headers.. Add headers and get +25hp. Port the heads and get +15hp. Do both together and get +45hp not +40hp...

MY CIS system suffers non of the electrical problems that plague the 928. NO MAF to go bad. NO chip to flash. NO larger injectors to spend a mint on. It's a true thing of beauty when you understand how it works. I think it's actually more sophisticated than a MAF system.

375RWHP may be very ambitious, maybe even pie in the sky but an extra 35RWHP from the cams will get me into the 350RWHP NA range. Just putting a 5.0L under the Euro top gets around 320hp at the crank. That's 32hp more than the 85-86 5.0L and on par with the S4.

Just my $0.02, give the Old Buggers a break.

[Danglerb]

Hey I'm pulling for you. Sitting on my own project waiting to see what works the best and hoping I don't need to go to a 5.4L to get the power I would like.

Weak link in CIS isn't fuel delivery, its air, and the fuel distributor air meter system tends to be about 10 hp less than using a MAF.

There aren't a lot of motors and test results with a 16v 928, so I use a Ford 302 as my point of reference on practical power levels. Much better heads and cams exist off the shelf for the Ford, and it hits a wall with a 7500 rpm redline around 350 rwhp from 5.0L, with that last 30 hp not very easy to get.

I'm thinking once the heads and cams are done the gains to be made are from the intake system and getting more air to the cylinders, maybe cooler air.

[rich]

Spoke with Berry Cams today. No dice on the weld up and regrind. He told me because the cam is drilled and they have to weld all the way around, the cam will likely crack during cool down. I called Elgin Cams today. Their voice mail stated they are out on vacation until the 16th.

I'm supposed to have my car in Huntsville AL on the 16th.

Hey N20-Shark, What did your cams cost? I can't find pricing on the Web site.