How NOT to run a shop: Normy's "Foreign Affairs" fiasco-

[Normy]

Those of you in South Florida, I'd advise you STAY AWAY from the shop known as "Foreign Affairs". Whoever runs it is a pretentious anus who knows nothing about the 928 automobile!!!
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Here's why I say that:

I recently replaced the Falken rubber on my '85 S2 with another set of Falken RT-615's. These tires RULE! They lasted about 5000 miles on my car, and they are just barely outside the definition of "racing tire". Treadwear 200, which means that on your wife's Jetta they might last 20,000 miles. 15k if she likes taking corners...

[they lasted 5000 miles on my 928; that's not the tires' fault, it is mine- I couldn't refrain from making 90 degree turns at 45 mph without braking at all]

Anyway, I went BIG this time. I had 225/45-17 front and 255/40-17 rears, as per Porsche on the GTS. I couldn't tell why they did that, and I had NO trouble at all breaking the rear end away with just a bit too much throttle or a late clutch release. This time I went 235/40-17 and 275/40-17, and the difference is amazing; I used to get sideways easily, but now the back end just hooks up and waits for the engine to catch up!

-On a 928, when you install new rubber, you need to have an alignment done. This isn't much of an issue in Florida or California or other places where the roads are good, but in Michigan~ Holy hell Batman! Anyway, I put the new tires on last week and drove the car about 100 miles. I called a shop in Pompano Beach called "Foreign Affairs" today about an alignment. I want the alignment done on a Hunter machine, and I confirmed with the owner that he has one. This shop has a good reputation online...some how!

If you peruse the Rennlist[run by a butt] website, you will discover that in south Florida, Foreign Affairs and Gulf Performance have the lock on the local community. Well, I wanted to go to Sears [they have the Hunter machine that does such a good job] but I thought I'd try one of these high-end shops since it is fun to hang out and talk cars while your machine is having a minor job done. I called the owner of Foreign Affairs tonight, and asked him about the job.

-The 928, as you all know, from Rennlist[run by a butt] and from the Nichols site, is a car that needs to be aligned with the car LEVEL. The regular ride-height needs to be maintained, or the car will wear the inside edges of the front tires. Most shops want to lift the car to allow the wheels to turn so they can calibrate their laser wheel sensors. Doing this DESTROYS the calibration of the suspention! It is possible to align this car with little extra effort, but they need to put the car on the rack, attach the sensors, and then manually wheel it back and forth a few feet.

Some of the racers, [I think Mark Kibort does this....actually have the car aligned while they are sitting in it!]

A properly done HUNTER alignment will result in front tires that wear out flat and at the same time as the rear. And the car will handle the way that Stuttgart wanted it to.

NOW- "Foreign Affairs" I called them this afternoon, and I have to tell you that whoevever I talked to was a pretentious sexual organ! I asked if I could bring the car to them for an alignment tomorrow, and he told me that he was full, and couldn't work on my car until Monday. Since I'm flying out Monday, this didn't work, so I told him I'd catch him the following week. Since the 928 has a specific requirement for its proper alignment....I felt the need to ask him a specific question:

"So now, when you align a 928...you do know that you cannot lift the car....right?"

The OWNER of Foreign Affairs response:

"I was trained in Germany at the shop in Stuttgart. I was trained by Germans, and I travelled overseas to do this training..." He said.

I explained how the raising of the car could change how the suspention arms interacted with the tires, and the particular gas-struts used on the 928 needed 20 or 30 miles to return to normal. I told him that a raised 928 wouldn't have the same alignment as a 928 with the standard ride height. I told him that this could be confirmed at Rennlist, and could be confirmed at Pelican Parts's 928 forum.

"I told you, I was trained in Germany! And If I align your car....I'm going to lift it. I've never heard what you are talking about and I was

N!

[mistertate]

Why is the 928 suspension such a pain to align? I can't understand why all other cars with bushings installed at ride height return to their normal position quickly. For a while I thought maybe if I loosened all the bushing bolts then re-tightened them while at ride height that would help. The front end seems like the worst part but it's very similar to a Corvette or a Viper, why don't they have such problems?
Rolling the car for calibration is a good idea. I would think another option may be to measure ride height before calibrating the sensors then use straps to pull it back down to it's original height. One strap on the engine cradle and one on the tranny protector/subframe thingy..
I've tried lifting on the outermost suspension points and even that raises it a little. If you're going to have to have the wheels off for any reason try and save it for last or you're f__ed. It makes the whole process backwards because on any other car you do the tires, brakes, suspension etc. THEN align it.

[mistertate]

"the particular gas-struts used on the 928 needed 20 or 30 miles to return to normal"

It's the struts that cause the problem?

[Danglerb]

Normy, not meaning to be rude, but you have this all wrong, or I do, anyway don't take my phrasing as meaning something, just typing it out quickly.

Tires have nothing to do with alignment, and changing tires doesn't require any change in alignment, if it did the tires are massively defective. Alignment is done with reference to the wheel.

Its not "the shocks", 928 use about 5 or more different types, and they are not fundamentally different from the shocks used on any other car. Its the rubber bushings in the A arms that twists when the car is raised, and it frankly makes little sense to me.

Some shops do indeed follow a WSM proceedure and pull the car down after lifting it, but I don't think its just pulling it down to normal ride height, but really pulling it down so it returns to normal height when released.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Normy, not meaning to be rude, but you have this all wrong, or I do, anyway don't take my phrasing as meaning something, just typing it out quickly.

Tires have nothing to do with alignment, and changing tires doesn't require any change in alignment, if it did the tires are massively defective. Alignment is done with reference to the wheel.

Its not "the shocks", 928 use about 5 or more different types, and they are not fundamentally different from the shocks used on any other car. Its the rubber bushings in the A arms that twists when the car is raised, and it frankly makes little sense to me.

Some shops do indeed follow a WSM proceedure and pull the car down after lifting it, but I don't think its just pulling it down to normal ride height, but really pulling it down so it returns to normal height when released.

New tires have nothing to do with alignment other than that their new owner would prefer them to last 7500 miles instead of 5000-

-The 928 automobile, for whatever reason, does not return to normal ride height when you jack it up. Tension in the bushings? Tight shock absorbers? The Dalai Lama loves 928's that look like 4X4 pickup-trucks? You decide, I don't know what causes it. One of my previous cars was a VW Corrado VR6, and it had the same problem, although less obvious. If you jacked it up, it sat higher than it should have. On that car, if you pressed down on the fender then it returned to its' proper ride height. The 928 does not do that- you HAVE to drive it for at least 10 miles to get the ride height back to normal.

If the ride height isn't normal when they align the car, it will WEAR the crap out of the inside edges of the front tires! 928's that have been lowered will always do this!

[I suspect that you could lower a 928 via the threaded spring perches, and then have it aligned; If you lowered it exactly enough to compensate for the lifting that most shops want to do on the Hunter machine...then you'd wind up with normal tire wear and correct handling. Good luck-]

-What pissed me off about all this was the owner of the shop's attitude. When I tried to explain over the phone that I wanted the car kept level, immediately it was perceived as an attack on his knowledge! Nothing of the sort was my intention- I could have taken it to Sears [which I did today; they cheerfully rolled my 928 back and forth on the Hunter machine instead of lifting it to calibrate the laser sensor pads], but I wanted to go to a local shop and hang out and talk cars.

Wow- I guess I picked the wrong place for that-!

That guy also told me that he is the local technical guy for the Porsche Club of America. I'm pretty sure that I'm NOT going to renew my membership in this organization just because of this individuals attitude! In Orlando in 1999, I joined the PCA after buying my 928. I attended the meeting, and immediately I felt pretention! I tried to engage a few people in conversation, but as soon as I mentioned my 928 they got quiet. The 996 owners all looked down on me, refused to talk to me, and I felt snubbed the whole evening. In fact, only two people talked to me that night: One guy who asked if I had bought the car in Ocala [I did; he told me about the history of my car], and a 20 year-old kid who had a 924.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have one thing to say: if the owner of "Foreign Affairs" is a PCA official then I will NEVER join this group. Period-!

N!

[Normy]

Incidently, his name is Bob Varela. In my opinion he is a pretentious ELOHSSA, and he has no business working on Porsche 928's.

-I know more about these cars than he does~!

N!

[rhjames]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Its not "the shocks", 928 use about 5 or more different types, and they are not fundamentally different from the shocks used on any other car. Its the rubber bushings in the A arms that twists when the car is raised,

the twisting of the lower suspension bushings is what prevents proper alignment after lifting. it changes the geometry of toe measurements.


Porsche recommends 100 miles of running after the car has been lifted, prior to alignment.

you can pull it down for 15 minutes and then align, but it's best to just not jack it up.


--Russ

[Danglerb]

Some shop owners have a "only I know stuff" attitude, come to think of it I know quite a few. I think some Porsche owners actually like the abuse.

My view is that anybody that can't make me understand how I am wrong, doesn't understand it themselves.

[lizard928s]

it is correct that raising the car before an alignment is bad,

the reason is that the rubber bushings in BOTH the upper and lower control arms prevent the car from going back to its normal ride height.

[Fabio421]

Are these bushings somehow causing unecessary friction or binding? Shouldn't they rotate freely?

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Some shop owners have a "only I know stuff" attitude, come to think of it I know quite a few. I think some Porsche owners actually like the abuse.

My view is that anybody that can't make me understand how I am wrong, doesn't understand it themselves.

EXACTLY. We have this attitude in the cockpit these days. "Tell me what is more correct" is our mantra when we fly. I DO NOT hesitate to tell the two people in front of me in the cockpit of the 727 [I'm a flight engineer] what I think about what they are doing. I am NOT going to allow some former-military moron with no knowledge of FAA part 121 to break a rule and put MY pilot license in play! I always speak up, but I do so under the following procedures:

-It is not WHO is wrong, it is WHAT is wrong. I don't point fingers in the cockpit, and I don't point fingers when I'm dealing with automotive service shops- I try to educate them first and then work with them. That is exactly what I did at Sears in Fort Lauderdale yesterday, and the man who did my alignment already knew to keep the car level. He wasn't anything to look at [black guy, probably 45 years old, and fairly tired....] I slipped him a $20 bill as a tip. If I generate a $100 bill at a restaurant, I will ALWAYS tip either 20% or 25 cents. 20 percent is what decent service is worth; I was a server once and I came home so tired I woke up slumped over in kitchen chairs at 6 am when my dad got up and pushed me towards my bed! I got good tips, but I learned what it means to work for your coin!

[Looking back on that, I don't understand how I managed to drive my '77 VW Rabbit home some times....]

That guy at that shop? He's apparently spending all his time making expensive cars slightly faster than they were from the factory for wealthy guys that wouldn't know a trailing arm from their own arm.....which means he's doing nothing. I've met Puerto Rican 20 year-olds up in Orlando who own base-model Hondas that will turn 10 second quarter miles. Hello? Who really knows how to make a car fast, and who is just a POSER who wants to aggrandize himself when someone calls him?

-This putz told me that he was at the "mechanics" rollout in Stuttgart when the 928 was formally unvieled. I wish I had asked him when exactly that was....

I have the strange feeling that he'd spend a minute or two hunting around for an answer...

N!

PS: South Florida posters: Stay away from Foreign Affairs!

[Alan in AZ]

Actually my Porsche dealership always raises the car to do an alignment then they crank it back down with a chain ratchet bolted to the floor - they re-verify the ride height and then align it - I asked why and they said they were trained to do it this way...

Really doesn't make any difference to me - seems more trouble than not raising it though

Maybe he only got the first part of that training....

Alan

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Alan in AZ

Actually my Porsche dealership always raises the car to do an alignment then they crank it back down with a chain ratchet bolted to the floor - they re-verify the ride height and then align it - I asked why and they said they were trained to do it this way...

Really doesn't make any difference to me - seems more trouble than not raising it though

Maybe he only got the first part of that training....

Alan

There is nothing in the WSM's that I have been able to find about controlling the ride-height of the car during an alignment. A mechanic can certainly be forgiven if he balks at rolling the car back and forth on the Hunter DSP-400 machine- I'll buy that "out"..... but I watched the guy do my alignment and he rolled it back and forth about a foot or two! For you metric folks, he rolled it back and forth about 30-60 centimeters. That is all it took for the lasers to calibrate-

If you do a search of the Nichols site, or do a search of that "other" site that starts with "R" and includes one of the worst management teams in website history....then you will get an EYEFULL! What you are talking about is the "other" way to do an alignment on a 928: have them strap it back down to normal ride height.

-I think that I read that Mark Kibort, who owns the '87 S4 that was featured in the car magazine back then that reached 174 on the Bonneville salt flat...also talks about aligning this car.

The long and short: This guy, this clown who owns this shop? He thinks he knows everything about every car, and he wasn't shy about sharing it over the phone. If you are in South Florida then AVOID Foreign Affairs. This shop is apparently a dive where rich boys deposit dollars and Porsches limp away sore~

N!

[Danglerb]

I think you have to be open to accepting that the guy may actually know what he is doing, and the two of you butted heads for who knows what reason.

I've asked a few technical types about why the rubber bushing can't or isn't lubricated, but nobody has given me a good answer yet. I'm thinking Brendan said he used some kind of a dry lube on his bushings, but I'm not sure.

[Britwrench]

Wheel alignment is carried out after checking that front and rear ride height corresponds to Porsche specification to the relevant model. Ride height was with a full tank and driver.

Pulling down the 928 to spec heights with straps used to be done at Porsche dealers.

At Porsche training school, their recommendation was 7 miles driving at a minimum before the suspension would settle to "natural" height.

[chassisresearch]

"If you peruse the Rennlist[run by a butt] website,"

Why did I find this funny???

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Britwrench

Wheel alignment is carried out after checking that front and rear ride height corresponds to Porsche specification to the relevant model. Ride height was with a full tank and driver.

Pulling down the 928 to spec heights with straps used to be done at Porsche dealers.

At Porsche training school, their recommendation was 7 miles driving at a minimum before the suspension would settle to "natural" height.

Well then Mr. Varella apparently missed that day in school in Stuttgart, where he claimed to have had the factory training. He also told me that he was there the day in 1977 when the 928 was rolled out, and he took his training on the new car then.

I'm at a loss; how does training in Stuttgart make you any more proficient? Most airlines these days send their pilots a CD with a training course on it. You are required to complete the training, and when the CD finishes it sends an email to the training department stating that you've passed your training. The great part of this is that you can spend the time getting current at home while your kids and significant other bounce off you...and you really are better trained, because you can always backtrack and look up things that you wouldn't have been able to do if you had been stuck in class in Memphis or Dallas or Denver or Atlanta for 5 days~

Mr. Varella seems to think that being trained in Germany makes you an instant "Porsche God" and as such you are beyond question. That means you take your car to Mr. Varella, and no matter what is wrong, he waves his "magic hand" across the offending parts and suddenly it becomes RIGHT! ALL because of the training in the southern German city of STUTTGART! There must be something in the water....

The best mechanics that I have ever seen were Puerto Rican 20-year olds in Orlando who took Honda Civics and Mazda RX-7's and turned these wastes-of-oil-and-gas into 11 second quarter-mile cars that actually could be driven on the street and were totally driveable-! Mr. Varella takes fast cars and makes them marginally faster, and then he charges exhorbitant fees. And likes to call himself an "expert" because he volunteered to be the local PCA technical guy and he flew back and forth to Germany once............

[Funny, we just proved that he's not an "expert"!]

-I can't stand PRETENTION!

N!

[Britwrench]

Most Porsche ( Mercedes the same too) approved wheel-aligners up to the '90s did not require lifting the vehicle for the sensors calibration. That's why the wheels have removable center caps. The sensors are centralized on the wheel cap hole and then clipped on. After that wheel alignment is carried out.

Biggest issue used to be painted caps that don't have the two holes for removal.
Safest way is to remove the wheels....which meant raising the car.

By the way, to learn what happens with Porsche cars, and that applies to any make car, factory or importer training is the way to go. There are many "issues" that will never be in repair manuals, TSB or official printed information.