Timing Belt Question

[surfdog4]

Well it looks like the bolt that holds the upper roller on the tensioner worked loose or the roller failed somehow because my timing belt was slowly being rubbed away on the tensioner arm...what a mess in there

I decided to take the plunge while i have the radiator out to replace the timing belt...so first stupid question..you are supposed to rotate the engine clockwise....I'm assuming that is clockwise as you face the engine from the front?

I found one post that indicated that but just wanted to make sure.

Thanks!

[psychII]

Yes, clockwise as you face the engine from the front.

Not sure if you have this link, but I found it useful: http://members.rennlist.com/pirtle/tbelt.html

[surfdog4]

thanks...yes i have seen that timing belt procedure..I'm hoping the 16-valve job is similar enough. I'm working on my parts list now.

OK stupid question #2...does the bolt that goes through the upper roller on the tensioning arm thread into the water pump somehow? Since it looked bent i wanted to see if it was siezed up in there..when i backed it out coolant starting coming out. (I hadn't drained the engine block yet).

I can't tell from the PET diagram, but i can count more holes in the water pump gasket than i can account for on the parts list, so there must be a couple of "different" bolts that go in there (the water pump is on a different sheet from the timing belt..go figure

Sorry for the nature of this question, I'm trying to figure out all the parts i need before i start dismantling everything.
Thanks!

[SeanR]

Give Roger a call on Monday, I know we have the diagram on file for each bolt and what size goes where. On the bolt, yes, the bolt that goes in to the WP does hold the roller. It has 2 bushings that you need to replace. Sometimes the bolt ends up bent which causes the belt to ride forward, which is not good. The tensioner roller assembly all bolts up there. ON the water pump.

There is only one bolt on the WP that you won't install when doing the pump itself. It is a longer one on the drivers side that holds the cover on. Long 10mm bolt about 100mm long.

2 of the holes you see on the gasket are the "pins" that hold the WP in place. Use a small bead of silicone sealant to hold the gasket in place as you mount it.

[surfdog4]

that's exactly what happened to mine..the belt rode forward and was being grinded down.

So normal for coolant to come out of that hole when you unbolt that upper roller? I noticed after '83 the bolt was changed to a pin

[porken]

What Sean meant to say was - keep the long bolt, then remove all the other, busted factory tensioner stuff, and install a modern tensioner.

[SeanR]

Yea, that's what I was saying. Sorry boss.

[surfdog4]

OK I'll bite...where do you get the "modern" tensioner? I hate to ask after seeing an "old" tensioner is ~$1k

[Danglerb]

Porken makes an adapter to use a tensioner from an Audi. Porken and Roger both I think have them for sale, but Roger I believe has them kitted up with the Audi part.

Despite the enthusiasm and frequent endorsement, its a new product for a critical system replacing what generally has worked very well for 25 years if properly installed.

[porken]

Roger sells the PKsn'r exclusively. He also has the Audi parts at better than internet prices. It costs less than the factory parts, and doesn't require retensioning after 1000 miles.

The factory system works, but not well, compared to modern, damped, self-adjusting, systems.

The factory parts are a collection of fixes to an original bad design. The belt tension is either too high or too low at any given time. The bearings are undersized, and the tensioner arm uses plastic bushings which wear prematurely. The idler pulleys are there to control belt flutter, and keep the belt on the crank gear when the engine is cold. The tension light used on '85-up has a 3 minute delay at startup, because the factory tensioner is often too loose with a cold engine, and would light too often!

[surfdog4]

....so, how much all together?

[porken]

AFAIK, the airpump delete version is around $300 for everything. The airpump version costs a little more, but has a removeable front bracket, which makes R&R'ing the airpump much easier than with the stock tensioner.

See here for the manual - http://liftbars.com

[surfdog4]

Turns out the timing belt was so chewed up it fell behind the tensioner pulley..so the crank now turns without turning the camshafts..now I also noticed that I don't even have a 45 degree mark on the vibration damper, i have a 23 degree mark instead why 23?.

Being this is an '81, 16V engine, shouldn't it be OK to turn the camshafts by hand independent of the crankshaft? at some point i'm going to have to get them lined up. The timing belt procedure says line everything up with the crankshaft at TDC

The procedure for the 32 valve engine says you can turn the camshafts when the crankshaft is aligned at the 45 mark, but I'm not sure if that is true or even matters with this engine.

Also, before i take it off, does the vibration damper have some kind of keying so that you are sure it's back in the same place when you go to put it back on? is that wha the collar washer does?

Just trying to be sure of things before i undo it all...

they've tried twice to deliver my parts while i was not home..so looks like i won't get them in time for the weekend.

[rhjames]

23 degree mark is 16V

yours is non-interference.....turn the cams 360 degrees with no issues-just be sure to follow timing mark positions for crank and cams (per instructions procedure) when putting it back together

vibration dampener is not keyed--181ft lbs torque --a pain to break loose


take your time and take pictures as you go along. you can then go back and reference where everything came from, or you can use a sharpie to mark where each bolt came from (number the bolt, and then number the corresponding hole it came from)



good luck--

--Russ

[surfdog4]

thanks...so what's the significance of the 23 degree mark? The timing belt procedure only requires a TDC mark for alignment, so seems like -20, -10, 0, +10, +20 would work..23?

[devilinblack]

23 degrees BTDC is the mark for setting the timing (@3000 RPM) on 80-82 models. On 78-79's it's 31 degrees BTDC @ 3000 RPM.

[porken]

For 16V, you set the balancer to 0|T, then install the (pre-83) crank lock.

The balancer is keyed by a woodruff key which also locates the timing belt gear. You may need a large puller to get it off. Coat the crank with heavy oil or antiseize when you reinstall, to make it easier next time. Make sure you can read the numbers as in the pic above - it is possible to put it on backwards.

[rhjames]

Originally Posted by porken

For 16V, you set the balancer to 0|T, then install the (pre-83) crank lock.

The balancer is keyed by a woodruff key

Am I missing something here? my 79 crank has no woodruff key....forward of the belt gear.

????





My name is spelled correctly here>>>>>>>>>Russ

[surfdog4]

Originally Posted by porken

Make sure you can read the numbers as in the pic above - it is possible to put it on backwards.

thanks...yes mine is not quite as beautiful as the pic above..i had to look pretty hard to see the marks at all and eventually rubbed some chalk into them so they would show a little better. and my "red" marker is more of a crusty black right now. My parts came saturday and I'm supposed to get the flywheel lock tomorrow so hopefully will be able to start this next weekend.

[jthwan22]

I got the porken tensioner and like it. Not going back to retension is a good thing. I got a supercharger and it is PIA to remove.