Callaway Camaero anyone? I guess it's fortunate that Reeves and I likely had our last conversation 3 years ago when he insisted on telling me how bad the 928really was compared to his beloved Corvettes.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293912178.jpg

Rich you continue to reach. The 928 is a 5 liter engine not a 7 liter. The engine is grossly oversized for its capacity. Again a design flaw. Oversized and overweight for its intended size. Originally designed as a 5 liter engine and downsized slightly to 4.5 liters when the 70's gas crunch hit. It was never intended to be a 7 liter engine. So your logic is to saddle the chevy with the burden of the porsches untapped dimensions. Briillant.

Looks like my sarcasm was lost on that one. It was a jab at your misspelling. ;)

Oh....miss that like the speen er splinen, er ah spillin.SmileWavy

Well again, spend the money a conversion would cost on a 928 engine and that issue could be resolved and you would still have a Porsche worth something. Spend your money any way you like. But if your trying to make cheap hp there are easier ways to have a chevy camaro without starting with a Porsche. That's all I'm sayin. You get what you pay for if your lucky. Doesn't mean it will be worth what you pay when your done.

You have to remember the 928's engine was designed to have a large cooling capacity, since the car was intended to run at high speeds for extended periods of time. Myself, I don't consider the size or weight of the engine to be a flaw...that alone is responsible for the longevity of these engines.

I hope not all of us that want to do a conversion are that bad... If I had a 4 valve motor, a well sorted twin turbo kit would be the way to go, inter-cooled turbos for that matter are the best way to go for the best power to driveablity answer, IMO. Not being a purest to any make, just a follower of good design, I think a pump gas SBC, built with production heads and block, with over 1hp per. CID would be on the ragged edge of a DD, and if it does have a carb, don't expect it to stay running at the end of a high G brake stop. The same things that make it appealing to put the SBC in are also the same things that look like drawbacks to me. I don't think you can really do an apples to apples comparison, there's just to many variables, IE keep the P car ass., or convert the lines for the AC and PS for common GM items?

bottom line is this.....if you want lots of reliable HP....it costs MONEY....and lots of it....

The obvious upside to the chevy LS engines is weight and cost per HP.....its about 1/2 the cost per HP as a 928 engine....

Weight is not as important for a street car.....but on a race car its huge...& the 200lbs less an aluminum block LS weighs is huge....

It all comes down to your budget and your goals for YOUR 928....

Been mullin' over this conversation. I'm considering a 928 LS3 Conversion. I hadn't seen the twin turbo kit before so it's only just entered consideration.

For me, I guess it depends on the condition and year of the 928 I find. If it's a late model Euro version in decent shape, I may run it until it becomes unreliable.

For me, the power and packaging of the LS series motors is just incredible. Nothing beats it.

By the way, I saw there were some Pantera conversations going on. Pantera's were built from 1970 to 1995. Ford imported them as Corvette Killers from 1970 to 1975 so the majority that you see are from these years.

There was a resurgence in the late 80's and early 90's and a new importer brought in GT5's. So, you see these for sale too.

I personally have never seen a Pantera built between 75 and 85 but I guess they're supposed to exist.

My shop, back when I had it, restored a few of them.

AS far as the one guy who says he's 6'3" and fits in it, his floorboards must be lowered because I'm 6', 185 lbs, and I don't. My head scrubs. That's with stock seats, and with lowered and trimmed Fiero seats - the thinnest we could build them.

H

Glutton for Punishment -
 

It is obvious that without an accurate side by side analysis of all of the needed parts, fabrication time, labor and cost, there is no possible way to justify any advantage to installing a Chevy engine into a 928. From my experience over the years, I’ve seen lots of “it sounded like a good idea at the time” projects fail to produce the desired results. This type of learning experience is most effective when you are waist deep in the venture before the cold hard economic facts sink in.

Just a couple of comments - Everyone here understands that the German design philosophy behind their cars is totally different from the U.S. In many examples (drive train layout), Porsche was many years ahead of even the GM top of the line Corvette.

If you want something other than the power, refinement and long legged comfort of a 928, start your project off with another test bed. Personally, I don’t think Porsche should be mongrelized.

In the real world, hybrids are very seldom (if ever) a value/dollar effort. If you plan on charging everything off to a “just for the fun-of-it” experience, don’t even keep track of your time and expense.

If you are wanting to bump up or re-power an older 928, there are lots of comparatively inexpensive and powerful 32 valve engines/trans available that are out of the box tough, reliable and basically bolt-in ready to install.



Good Luck, Michael :)

"If you are wanting to bump up or re-power an older 928, there are lots of comparatively inexpensive and powerful 32 valve engines/trans available that are out of the box tough, reliable and basically bolt-in ready to install."

Putting an S4 engine into an early cis car is probably more difficult than a Chevy conversion.

Power Plant Option -
 

Hey Fred, Naturally everyone realizes there will always be an ongoing debate concerning the pro’s and con’s for installing a Chevy V8 into a 928. But surely you do not consider that the installation of a 32 valve engine would generate more issues than a small block Chevy ?

I do not consider myself a transplant expert but considering that the 928 driveline layout was designed with the proper major component location, hood clearance, exhaust, clutch/bell housing setup, instrumentation, cooling system, etc… in mind, I do not understand your assessment of the difficulty. A couple of years ago I had helped install a 32 valve engine into an 81 and later an 83 928 without too much drama other than the expected additional hardware, cables, fuel and ignition computers/associated wiring, etc... and having to make adjustments for the different engine issues.

What had prompted the final 32 valve engine selection was only after considering several other engine options along with a $10K estimate for an all inclusive LS1 plug and play parts package. If I remember correctly, the complete 67K mile S4 engine (including all the pumps, hoses, computers, etc)... was about $4,150 with the total project drive away cost of approximately $5,300.

I am not knocking the LS1 engine as a power plant in any way. I just personally prefer to leave with the same lady I came with.

Michael

$5300 to change a 2 valve motor to 4 valve motor, with the computer and wiring harness? That sounds like a good return $ per HP. I think it would real hard to do the SBC or an LS conversion for that kind of money. I know most people buy the 928 bc they like the car, and you if you really like them, you should buy the nicest example you can afford, and if it is that nice, it should stay all Porsche. I don't think most people, and I know there are exceptions, but most are not going to end up selling them for a profit. To keep up a nice example shouldn't cost near as much as a conversion IMO, and if it's not fast enough, sell it and find something else. I want to do the conversion myself with an 82 US auto that is real rough. It is just bc I'm failure with SBC and LS engines. I agree with the "double your cost estimate and triple your time estimate" statement.

I once put a ljet engine in a cis car. Had to change the entire fuel system as well as all the electronics, wire harnesses and fuse panel. To properly remove and reinstall the fuel lines the gearbox needs to be removed. I'm sure there are more suprises when going from a 16 valver to a 32 valver.

A real l-jet like in a BMW 3.0CSi upgrade or the LH?? I've got the d-jet (original FI) in my coupe and it screams...so does the l-jet on my friends

Scribbled Notes -
 

Here are a couple of comments in answer to an email I received. These projects were wrapped up quite a while back so I had to scrounge around in my old notes for a review of the 32 valve engine upgrade to the earlier 928‘s. If I remember correctly, the most difficult part of the whole process was to keep your momentum going while making trips back and forth to the wrecking yard for the misc stuff. Luckily, we had a complete car dedicated for scavenging. I show a diagram where a couple of fused 12volt power source circuits were added along with the power relays - but we didn’t need to change out the fuse panel. The replacement engine assembly and computers with their attached harnesses pretty well came with 90% of the wiring for the LH fuel and ignition control systems. One notation I found mentioned the fuel pump and the mounting process of the fuel lines. For our installation, the transmission did not need to be lowered. The fuel vapor/evaporation lines were also replaced because of their age. An assortment of nuts, bolts, clamps, small braces, etc.... were simply transferred from the donor vehicle. While we were at it, the driveline consumables were renewed and the instrument cluster, heating and A/C systems, etc... were gone through. Much later the brakes, wheels and tires were upgraded to round out the effort.

It is clear that everyone should thoroughly review all the available re-power options before diving in to what can be a very expensive judgment issue. Several 928 project threads have verified that it is not uncommon to invest $10,000 to have a fine $5,000 car.

Michael

So, I guess there are really three options. There's the twin turbo route, the supercharger route and the LSx swap.

I wonder how hard it would be to swap a Cayenne turbo motor into it.

Wasn't last years Daytona winner a non-factory effort where they put a Cayenne motor into a Fabcar?

Hmmm.


H

The Cayenne engine is totally delicious.

Yeah...but it will totally NOT FIT! It is too tall.

-Some people have posited that if the oil pan was left off, then a "dry sump" system on this engine MIGHT work.

I say try it- It's only cash; It will work or it won't, end of story.

AS to the chevy transplants: I personally witnessed one in Detroit. I ran like a 928. It sounded like a 928. It was driveable, it was fixeable...it was a 928. At the same time, it's value was probably half what the car would be worth with the original engine overhauled. There's the real problem with the chevy conversion- you loose a tremendous amount of resale value. It doesn't matter if you are replacing the original '78 219 hp motor with a 450 hp chevy- you are still replacing the original motor and collectors, the people who would potentially be paying for this car during an internet swap...would be far more interested if the original M28 engine was in the car. They don't care how fast it is-they just want to move the car, and originality is VERY important.

What's more- a "proper" chevrolet transplant, according to the people at Renegade Hybrids...will set you back about $8000. And their kit is incomplete- you need to [somehow] find a bellhousing part from a 1962 chevy in a junkyard. They don't have the part, and you need to find it. Hello?

-For $8000, you can easily do a good overhaul of an existing M28 engine. In fact, you can have low compression 951 pistons installed, along with 951 heads. With a few mods, the 951 heads fit just fine, and they are FAR stronger in the valve department!

I'd do a chevy transplant with some old 350 four barrel for a few months while I rebuilt my M28 in my garage...if my timing belt snapped tomorrow. Of course...there are always those Lamborghini Gallardo's on eBay....

N!

I remember reading an article about the Daytona car and I think adding the dry sump to the Cayenne motor represented the bulk of the cost to using it in the Fabcar.

And from the way the article sounded, the expense was considerable. Too bad. Maybe it would fit in a 944. Don't they have more room under the hood?

As to the loss of resale value, I suppose it matters what you start with. I think doing the swap to a perfect 928 GTS would be heresy. But an early 928 hangar queen doesn't exactly command much in the way of resale in the first place.

For my own part, I think I'll see what I can find. I have to sell my 911 first anyway.

Well, here's a Cayenne engine. Notice how the distance of the pulley is about the same in appearance in height to the top of the cylinder heads as the 928. The 928 has a tall intake the Cayenne doesn't. The 928 pan is lower profile but the intake is taller.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1299037691.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1299037774.jpg

Imho
 

Hey folks, Seeing as this is another engine swap thread. I would like to toss forth my worthless opinion.

Sacrilege! Blasphemy! Sinners Repent!

ANY engine swap is a hassle. You are better off putting the original mill in there 9 out of 10 times. On a 928...No. 928s have enough problems all stock. Dumb Idea. The only people that will tell you it is a good idea are A) trying to sell you a kit which you can pretend will all work B) Trying to rationalize their own insanity, or C) Are far too enamored with the so and so v8 engine that delivers giganto horsepower.

Never mind that the drive train will not take the added horsepower.
Never mind that the balance and handling will suffer.
Never mind that the resale value will plummet.
Never mind that "all the little things" may not work

Fine, whatever....IF you are going to do it..Find a dead one or pick up the Aborted and abandoned swap projects that come up from time to time. You can pick em up for a song "some assembly required". Just don't destroy a running classic for your version of perfection.

OH, and just TRY to smog the thing in California. Goood Freakin luck!

Here's to the Pure Life -
 

Hey SolReaver, I couldn’t agree with you more when it comes to trying to maintain every 928 as unmolested as possible. As John Wayne used to say after a couple of belts - “Here’s to the Pure Life”.

But then again, I have to admit that Cayenne engine would certainly look impressive under the hood. :)

Michael

1. Yes it will, I am running 490wrtq and I have had no issues whatsoever

2. No it wont, it actually makes it 48-52% so it will just have most of the weight in the rear so you will gain traction. Also by swapping to a LSX motor you will loose almost 200lbs from the weight of this pig

3. resale with these things is appalling as it is and none of these cars are worth more than $15k anyway...

4. If its a track car than you dont need little things, they slow you down.

5. 49/50 states are not California and dont have absurd smog tests.


not saying that I would want it on a daily driver, but if you want to go fast and not worry about oiling issues or 7ft timing belts, and have a lighter car... than this is the best option.

if its not your car or money why do you care.

Not convinced
 

Ubercooper: OK, so it works for you. As a track car. and you admit there is no way in hell that you could ever pass the smog in CA? I appreciate you underscoring my point. Thank you. As a TRACK car, yea, OK, I can see that. Track cars are usually one way conversions and "utilitarian" by nature.

The little things are kinda what the 928 is all about, it is a Luxury sports car. Admitted it makes a Dynamite track car once you lighten all the little things and here is where our visions and expectations for the vehicle differ. If you don't care about the little things like working gauges, air conditioning, and gut the interior, yea, I guess.... But it isn't really a Porsche 928 anymore...is it? It is a track car and that is a proud beastie in it's own right.

Please tell me that you started with a hopelessly Dead OB or something. I will sleep better at night.

Gotta disagree with the #3 as I work on a few 928's that are well above that range. Further if you want a NICE one it will cost you. Projects are everywhere.

Oiling issues? Timing Belt? Not really a problem with competent PM. Learn the car you got. Learn to love the car you got. love the car you have.


McDonald: yea, would LOOK nice,,,So would a Jag v12. Getting one to fit and work....sheesh.

Here's to clean living.

Oiling issues? Timing Belt? Not really a problem with competent PM. Learn the car you got. Learn to love the car you got. love the car you have.

Where have you been? These engines fill the cylinder heads with oil and spin 2 and 6 rod bearings. Its being discussed at length on rennlist and the cause has not been isolated to help determine the solution.

Yes the 928 that was used for my track car had a blown motor..

Of course it is still a 928, it has the body, transaxle, and suspension of one... just a bigger and more powerful heart.

Don't believe the hype
 

Timing belt: Par for the course. Spun bearings..oil in cylinders...whatever these are old cars..they break. Get over it. People discuss Alien UFO sightings over the internet. It doesn't mean that space men are going to land in my back yard.

OK, pumping an unorthodox heart into an OB and making it a track car. Whatever floats your boat. Driving around every once in a while at a track, nah, that's not really a car. Driving back and forth to work. That's a car. Still not my idea of a good time.

Offhand...what kind of city mileage does the garage queen get? I notice engine transplant folks hardly ever want to talk about such things. They usually point out what admirable hwy mileage they get going downhill with a stiff breeze behind them and a sail.

wrong, thats the difference between a street car and a race car... if it has 4 wheels, 2 seats, and a steering wheel...its a car.

Mileage? Maybe 25 on the highway, the car is very light and the 2.2 rear keeps the revs low... On a track? Well its a 6.7L small block with a nasty cam so probably 2-5 would be my guess. I could honestly care less about the gas, I dont mind hearing my money explode cause it sounds fantastic.

OK, pumping an unorthodox heart into an OB and making it a track car. Whatever floats your boat. Driving around every once in a while at a track, nah, that's not really a car. Driving back and forth to work. That's a car. Still not my idea of a good time.

I guess that's why they call it auto racing.

Really doesn't have much in common with the Porsche 928 hobby.

Why so serious?
 

OK, so the city mileage is...abysmal. Not surprising. Physics can be a bee yatch like that. Can't say that my v 12 is exceptionally thrifty in this area either. Especially when you drive with a little Gusto. to be honest with you with the current price of fuel I don't see why people aren't resurrecting OB's with "sensible engines" that get reasonable mileage and are low maintenance. Sure, you won't be able to tear up the road, but the car just looks soo sexy! Further, when you are just driving along...who knows what's under the hood. To be honest, most drivers don't even care. It would be nice to see more OB's converted to moving form. (links in nicely with the hobby thing..eh, landseer?) and I would be open to viable solutions that got them out and visible as MOVING cars that the general public sees. With the price of fuel what it is and (shudder) what it may be, a gas guzzling monster just doesn't make sense.

I like the Electric 928...seems a bit more "elegant" than stuffing a small block. My difficulty with the whole transplant mentality is that (generally, and I am not pointing fingers here) it all tends to be "bigger is better" and "small block" (good engine,not denying it). I suggest we think out of this box and consider OTHER options. Not for track cars. For REAL cars. Vehicles you can drive on a daily basis and live with.

"auto racing" he he..Good one fb111

I'm still waiting to see the itemezed list of costs to make a 600+ HP small block conversion. I still stand by the fact that doing that conversion while retaining all accessories, plus fuel injection and refinement of the car is well past $20,000, likely closer to $26,000. Everybody quotes a junk yard engine...those are not 600 HP engines, or even 500 HP engines. Even a 450 HP small block with injection will run you well past $8,000.

I agree. Your not going to junk yard 650HP. Here's a link to 505HP. Are you sittin down? $ 14.499.99 before shipping, adaptor plate, accessory brackets, unobtainium clutch part from an old chevy...etc.

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/19244098/10002/-1?parentProductId=1503674

That was my research as well. You can install about 300 hp via a standard 350 with headers and a Holly 4V for about $8000. If your timing belt skips a tooth and you bend a bunch of valves...a $500 chevy engine with about 200 hp on a good day, along with the Renegade Hybrids kit + that HARD TO FIND bellhousing part + a few odds and ends winds up with your 928 on the road for a total cost of $2500. That's decent while you rebuild your M28 engine. You CAN put the Renegade Hybrid parts on eBay, sell the chevy van engine, and probably pretty much recoup your investment when you put the rebuilt M28 back in the car. The whole time you are driving your 928 instead of watching it get dusty in your garage. That's the best use of a chevy conversion-

Or.... for $ 8000.00 you could build a nice 928 long block and have it sitting in the corner of the garage as a spare bullet in the chamber in the event you ever have the skip to ma loo belt issue.

Why would you burn through $ 8000.00 and months of screwing around with a greasy junk yard engine only to spend thousands of more dollars to repair your 928 engine. Then have to undo and dispose of all the money time and parts and months of work spent? Sorry Normy, I doubt you would do that. :) I'm callin BS.

Musical engines?
 

Normy: engine transplants IMHO are not that simple. They don't pop in and out like legos. My M28 is gone...Lets pop a Small block in there just for now. No. Conversions, like track cars are a one way mission. They may be brave souls...but, they are NOT coming back. The parts are pretty much only valuable to others along the same path. 928 mills are actually less expensive to purchase than you might think and in your scenario a replacement engine M20 (or thereabouts) would be a better temporary solution. OR...Rebuild the old one.

Rich and Herr Kunn: You will not see the itemized receipt thing. Just not gonna happen. You are also very correct that a GOOD small block will cost you a reasonable amount of money. The prices skyrocket past 450 or so horse power. Demand is very high for these engines because...they fit ooodles of really cool cars!

Besides, your drive train won't TAKE over 400 (if that ) and so it is a moot point.

And Guys....the parts aren't "hard to find" they are impossible. These "kits" are just for suckers. How about I sell you a whole bunch of parts that you can pretend will fit? Well, it will be missing a crucial bell housing off of a right hand drive Yugo sold only in Iceland to the mail service between the years 84 and 86. You are sure to find it in a junkyard somewhere....

But seriously...I am sure renegade will give you MOST of the parts you need.

Engine swapping on this scale requires machining / Fabrication skill and a good deal of ingenuity. Don't expect anyone to deliver a turnkey solution. IF they say it is easy....they are lying.

No...It doesn't make sense AT ALL .. Chevy v8 swaps made sense on Jags during the 80s and into the 90s, when V12 Jags dropped their mills and were hideously expensive to replace. Even Jag people think it is stupid nowadays. Well...unless they own a conversion....which they have been trying to sell for ages.

For the time and money....NAH! If you want a small block...fix up a Camaro, Firebird, Impala, Monte Carlo, Chevelle, etc.... And Where ARE all these 928 conversions I keep hearing about? I have seen Pics, But i don't see them driving around on the streets....hmmmmm...funny that....

nobody cares enough to explicate their financial decisions for their car in itemized form because you think its more thrifty to keep the stock motor

Heres the deal with cost:

my car cost $9000 with a 460hp SBC already in there

that blew up because the retard who built it did a craptastic job. I invested $3000 in parts to that motor and now I have a 600hp monster... which for another $1000 or so, can go up to 900hp.

You dont buy a crate engine, that is a waste of money... you build a better one yourself.

you cannot bolt on a blower to a 928 motor and make this sort of power without upgrading everything else...then having it spin a bearing due to design flaw, the quest to make a 928 engine as reliable and powerful as an SBC will cost more than the conversion and engine upgrades.


as for driving on the streets.. who gives a fuuck. You will ruin your car with speedbumps, potholes, old people who dont see red lights, texting teenagers, cops, or the guy who runs a stop sign and mangles your pride and joy.

I keep my car in a controlled environment on the track because if it gets killed, I want to be the one that kills it... plus it wont get traction under the sped limit

If you want to spend $9000 on a blower, accusump, pistons, crank, and all that **** for a stock 928 motor feel free....its your money and Im not going to get pissed or try and argue a point if you spend it the way you want.

END

Cool, got dyno sheets ? or... So you drive on the track? What class? Where? How does the car place?

Complete chevy track car, $12,000?

So, its like buying and sorting 2 928's.