Another Small Block Conversion Argument

[Herr-Kuhn]

I thought I'd share some comments I received from someone online regarding comparing the costs of converting 928S4 32V to twin turbo power vs. installing a SBC into the 928.

What's wrong with people these days? Can't anybody provide me with an objective argument and an ITEMIZED list of parts and labour to pull this off? Ironic how I offered to provide him my itemized costs on the conversion and as well to send the power and torque curves on the engine as proof of what's what...yet all I get back is this childish drool with absolutely zero substance.

As sent to me:

Re: 928 V8 vs SBC As i stated before, we live in 2 different forms of reality. Personally, I think you keep your nose in too many car magazines. Additionally, I could build a a small block chevy from used and junk yard parts that would run down that over-priced, overly complcated buzz-bomb of yours and send it into the weeds yelping like a stuck pig. Like I said before, torque wins races and horsepower sells motors, plus RPMs kill engines not torque and I won't have to twist it to 7,500 RPMs to get the job done..

I can't help it if you pay too much for a motor and are incapable of performing the work yourself. Keep driving that buzz-bomb and keep paying the fidler. Also, any moron knows you can buy assembled, Chevy small block motors all day long on the internet making between 500 and 600hp for way less than $15,000. Try Jegs.com Blueprint Pro Series Small Block Chevy 427ci/540HP/535TQ Engine for a little over 8,000 dollars already built. I could build this same motor myself, in my own shop for around $6500 dollars and it would leave that pissy little buzz-bomb of yours so fast you would think you entered the twilight zone. No ECU, either. Just a simple carburetor, no complex bull-****. Get real!

[Herr-Kuhn]

[wills928]

Man that's cool !!!! Can I get it in a beltbuckle!!!! Lol

[Mrmerlin]

this sounds like a mis informed Gladiator,
I dont think he knows what Bwwaaahhh is nor has he had an opportunity to take a ride on a twisty road with windows up.
He may not be surprised that the Cvette has a similar drivetrain layout,
but atleast the S4 will be quiet at 150MPH with the windows up

[Pete R]

What's a carburetor?

[Mrmerlin]

Originally Posted by Pete R

What's a carburetor?

It is a device that was used on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine in 1945,
it had a habit of not working when negative Gs were pulled.
The Fuel injected Messerschmitt didnt have these running problems

[Herr-Kuhn]

600 HP GM crate engine: $9500
Intake with Fuel Injection: $3500
Renegade Hybrids Conversion Parts: $4500 (best I can tell there is a lot of stuff needed)
Exhaust Headers/Manifolds: $500
Misc Odds and Ends: $2,500 (at least...all the little stuff adds up FAST)

Parts: $19,500, let's say I'm high here and assume it's $18,000 for all the parts assuming you can sell the 32V for $1,500. You've already exceeded the cost of my system by at least $5,000.

Does anybody want to take a guess at the delta on the labor to remove the factory 32V engine, haggle with a bunch of wiring and then re-install an entirely different engine as compared to simply bolting on some parts? My system is like 40-60 hours labor and I can assure you that do do an engine swap like this will be at least 80 hours, if not closer to 120 hours to do it really right.

Then we have the issue of driveability. Radical cam, high compression ratio NA engine with big displacement will be LUCKY to get 12 MPG and have any street manners at all. Boosted 5.0 liter with turbos offline 99% of the time running a much softer CR and still retaining driveability and 20 MPG fuel economy. Power when you need it and economy when your foot is out of it. Plus the turbo engine will have a wider powerband. I looked on Jegs for the price on the 427...because that's the only NA engine making this kind of power. No 350 is going to make these kinds of numbers without some pressure.

+$6000 cost
+50 hours labour
8 MPG less on economy...from now until, well, forever
Resale destroyed...I'm certain this is the case

I think this is a fair assessment of what the possible cost delta is, in fact I'd say I've given the SBC every benefit of the doubt here on cost...the actual numbers probably paint an even further spread on the numbers (i.e. worse than I've presented).

I have yet to see one person give me a straight answer on all the costs on a 600 HP SBC conversion.

[Landseer]

Its all custom, that's why. Not worked out.

I'd prefer your solution.

[Herr-Kuhn]

I think it has been worked out reasonably well technically....BUT the real costs are always swept under the rug with these guys. Great, the SBC motor by itself costs less than a full TT system, but remember you have to actually put it into the car to have a completed product. Apples to apples.

All I'm after is an objective discussion on the total cost of such a conversion.

[Jon B.]

I'm sure the actual price is something similar to what you laid out. Will the renegade guys not give out an itemized list?

[Danglerb]

Somebody with good machine skills and typical machine shop equipment should be able to put a SBC carbed into a 928 and be able to drive it down the street in a few weekends. That part is fairly simple, but what have you got?

A classic hot rod, not much works on the dash, hard to start, lousy drivability, but runs like a bear at full throttle.

If that floats your boat, jump in with both feet, but most don't care for it that much.

A turnkey modern behaving version is many many hours and dollars away.

[Herr-Kuhn]

It's always the same:

1. Someone makes a comment saying the SBC is way cheaper to do and is vastly superior to the 928's 32V engine.

2. I ask for facts to back up those statements

3. Other party gets hot and bothered and makes personal attacks or remarks which have nothing to do with the topic

I guess as an Engineer, I tend to look at things a little differently than others. I had the Renegade guys tell me that the power to weight on their conversion made it such that the SBC only needed 500 HP to keep up with the 600 HP 32V. When you ran the power to weight ratio it showed that the SBC would have to weigh absolutely nothing for that statement to be true. I mean, come on we're not talking about solving a differential equation here, this is 5th grade math.

[Landseer]

What doesn't seem to exist is itemization, honest description and full discussion of a process from an enthusiast perspective. No way I'm buying a rene gade or other kit without it.

Same here, as an engineer, I'm not going down an unproven path unless I've got a bankroll stashed for fundamentals and contingency, AND commitment from somebody who has worked out a solution to participate.

[harborman]

If you want a big block go faster with American motor than just go buy a used Vette for about $5K, instead of screwing up a perfectly good 928, which is fine as it is and years ahead at the time.

[MPDano]

Hell, get a Pantera. That is one badass beast. Also, way before it's time.

[Fabio421]

Everyone know that a turbo 928 will never work.

[MPDano]

For those that put down Ford V8's "with" Carburetors. Heres a video favorite of mine. Pantera Versus Lamborghini Diablo. Guess who got smoked!

Yes, I know it's a Big Block. Would be interesting to put Kuhns TT against a 1970's Pantera.

[harborman]

I had a 1974, last year they made them. I think my 928S would out perform it both speed and handling.

Hell, get a Pantera. That is one badass beast. Also, way before it's time.

[XLR8928]

Originally Posted by Mrmerlin

It is a device that was used on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine in 1945,
it had a habit of not working when negative Gs were pulled.
The Fuel injected Messerschmitt didnt have these running problems

Don't forget my riding lawn mower! It has a carburetor too

[XLR8928]

Originally Posted by MPDano

For those that put down Ford V8's "with" Carburetors. Heres a video favorite of mine. Pantera Versus Lamborghini Diablo. Guess who got smoked!

Yes, I know it's a Big Block. Would be interesting to put Kuhns TT against a 1970's Pantera.

I think Panteras had a 351 Cleveland motor, Leo. Technically a small block