Another Small Block Conversion Argument
 

I thought I'd share some comments I received from someone online regarding comparing the costs of converting 928S4 32V to twin turbo power vs. installing a SBC into the 928.

What's wrong with people these days? Can't anybody provide me with an objective argument and an ITEMIZED list of parts and labour to pull this off? Ironic how I offered to provide him my itemized costs on the conversion and as well to send the power and torque curves on the engine as proof of what's what...yet all I get back is this childish drool with absolutely zero substance.

As sent to me:

Re: 928 V8 vs SBC As i stated before, we live in 2 different forms of reality. Personally, I think you keep your nose in too many car magazines. Additionally, I could build a a small block chevy from used and junk yard parts that would run down that over-priced, overly complcated buzz-bomb of yours and send it into the weeds yelping like a stuck pig. Like I said before, torque wins races and horsepower sells motors, plus RPMs kill engines not torque and I won't have to twist it to 7,500 RPMs to get the job done..

I can't help it if you pay too much for a motor and are incapable of performing the work yourself. Keep driving that buzz-bomb and keep paying the fidler. Also, any moron knows you can buy assembled, Chevy small block motors all day long on the internet making between 500 and 600hp for way less than $15,000. Try Jegs.com Blueprint Pro Series Small Block Chevy 427ci/540HP/535TQ Engine for a little over 8,000 dollars already built. I could build this same motor myself, in my own shop for around $6500 dollars and it would leave that pissy little buzz-bomb of yours so fast you would think you entered the twilight zone. No ECU, either. Just a simple carburetor, no complex bull-****. Get real!

Man that's cool !!!! Can I get it in a beltbuckle!!!! Lol

this sounds like a mis informed Gladiator,
I dont think he knows what Bwwaaahhh is nor has he had an opportunity to take a ride on a twisty road with windows up.
He may not be surprised that the Cvette has a similar drivetrain layout,
but atleast the S4 will be quiet at 150MPH with the windows up

What's a carburetor?

It is a device that was used on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine in 1945,
it had a habit of not working when negative Gs were pulled.
The Fuel injected Messerschmitt didnt have these running problems

600 HP GM crate engine: $9500
Intake with Fuel Injection: $3500
Renegade Hybrids Conversion Parts: $4500 (best I can tell there is a lot of stuff needed)
Exhaust Headers/Manifolds: $500
Misc Odds and Ends: $2,500 (at least...all the little stuff adds up FAST)

Parts: $19,500, let's say I'm high here and assume it's $18,000 for all the parts assuming you can sell the 32V for $1,500. You've already exceeded the cost of my system by at least $5,000.

Does anybody want to take a guess at the delta on the labor to remove the factory 32V engine, haggle with a bunch of wiring and then re-install an entirely different engine as compared to simply bolting on some parts? My system is like 40-60 hours labor and I can assure you that do do an engine swap like this will be at least 80 hours, if not closer to 120 hours to do it really right.

Then we have the issue of driveability. Radical cam, high compression ratio NA engine with big displacement will be LUCKY to get 12 MPG and have any street manners at all. Boosted 5.0 liter with turbos offline 99% of the time running a much softer CR and still retaining driveability and 20 MPG fuel economy. Power when you need it and economy when your foot is out of it. Plus the turbo engine will have a wider powerband. I looked on Jegs for the price on the 427...because that's the only NA engine making this kind of power. No 350 is going to make these kinds of numbers without some pressure.

+$6000 cost
+50 hours labour
8 MPG less on economy...from now until, well, forever
Resale destroyed...I'm certain this is the case

I think this is a fair assessment of what the possible cost delta is, in fact I'd say I've given the SBC every benefit of the doubt here on cost...the actual numbers probably paint an even further spread on the numbers (i.e. worse than I've presented).

I have yet to see one person give me a straight answer on all the costs on a 600 HP SBC conversion.

Its all custom, that's why. Not worked out.

I'd prefer your solution.

I think it has been worked out reasonably well technically....BUT the real costs are always swept under the rug with these guys. Great, the SBC motor by itself costs less than a full TT system, but remember you have to actually put it into the car to have a completed product. Apples to apples.

All I'm after is an objective discussion on the total cost of such a conversion.

I'm sure the actual price is something similar to what you laid out. Will the renegade guys not give out an itemized list?

Somebody with good machine skills and typical machine shop equipment should be able to put a SBC carbed into a 928 and be able to drive it down the street in a few weekends. That part is fairly simple, but what have you got?

A classic hot rod, not much works on the dash, hard to start, lousy drivability, but runs like a bear at full throttle.

If that floats your boat, jump in with both feet, but most don't care for it that much.

A turnkey modern behaving version is many many hours and dollars away.

It's always the same:

1. Someone makes a comment saying the SBC is way cheaper to do and is vastly superior to the 928's 32V engine.

2. I ask for facts to back up those statements

3. Other party gets hot and bothered and makes personal attacks or remarks which have nothing to do with the topic

I guess as an Engineer, I tend to look at things a little differently than others. I had the Renegade guys tell me that the power to weight on their conversion made it such that the SBC only needed 500 HP to keep up with the 600 HP 32V. When you ran the power to weight ratio it showed that the SBC would have to weigh absolutely nothing for that statement to be true. I mean, come on we're not talking about solving a differential equation here, this is 5th grade math.

What doesn't seem to exist is itemization, honest description and full discussion of a process from an enthusiast perspective. No way I'm buying a rene gade or other kit without it.

Same here, as an engineer, I'm not going down an unproven path unless I've got a bankroll stashed for fundamentals and contingency, AND commitment from somebody who has worked out a solution to participate.

If you want a big block go faster with American motor than just go buy a used Vette for about $5K, instead of screwing up a perfectly good 928, which is fine as it is and years ahead at the time.

Hell, get a Pantera. That is one badass beast. Also, way before it's time.

Everyone know that a turbo 928 will never work. :rolleyes:

For those that put down Ford V8's "with" Carburetors. Heres a video favorite of mine. Pantera Versus Lamborghini Diablo. Guess who got smoked!

Yes, I know it's a Big Block. Would be interesting to put Kuhns TT against a 1970's Pantera.

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I had a 1974, last year they made them. I think my 928S would out perform it both speed and handling.

Don't forget my riding lawn mower! It has a carburetor too:)

I think Panteras had a 351 Cleveland motor, Leo. Technically a small block:)

It had the Ford 351 and German ZF trans. Car made in Torino, Italy and sold here by Lincoln Mercury from 70 to 74. About 50k made and sold for $14k new. I know, I had one.

I forgot to mention, many Panteras rusted on the boats coming here from Italy. Poor or nonextent undercoating. This resulted in structural frame problems with monococh design. If you find a good one check it out very well for rust. Not many left. too bad, great concept for exceptional car at the time. I am sorry sold mine as it was clean, no rust.

The Pantera is a nice car...the engine bay is huge. I think it would be nice to take a newer, modern, 5.4 liter 4-cam Ford V8 and put TT on it in the back of the Pantera. That would be retro-cool and you could make 600+ HP with ease.

My parents had a Gran Torino station wagon with the 351 Cleveland in it. My brother used to take it out and do burn-outs in it and nearly put it over a cliff at age 14. I was riding shotgun.

I'd have to say that Pantera's are not much more than a kit car. Rear wheel bearing failure, half shafts, MGB wiper motor on a windshield the size of a Ferrari Testarossa. Overheating, an a/c system that hardly works. The front suspension and steering rack the size of a 4 cylinder import. The list goes on and on. But they do look good and sound great.

Damn dude. I am totally picturing that too. Which side almost went over the cliff?

I had an old Cougar with a 302 that used to do some killer burnouts in. I ended up junking the car and taking the 302 and put that in my old Triumph TR7 and built it up with a lopey cam and some serious Holleys. Friggin did a 720 and ended up on the center divider in from of the college I was going to, racing some punk with a new Trans Am. Sold the TR7 a week later. The dumbass things we do as Teens. Priceless ;)

Yes and Yes it does. The lopey idle gives me a woody every time ;)

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I had a small bumper 72 and it didn't sound anything like yours. I bought 70 boss 302 heads for it and all the stuff to make it a solid lifter higher compression engine but sold it and got into something else. I had used mine as a daily driver so you can get an idea of how long ago it was.

Mine never over heated and ran pretty good. I had it when I lived in Vail and there was a good shop in Aurora at the time. I had him lower the suspension to original design. It was not a "kit car", by any means. It was way ahead of it's time! Like any sports car it required attention. I am very sorry I sold it, but I love my 928S. I think a good Pantera goes for $80K today, if you can find a good one.

I suspect Colorado a little cooler then Phila. in the summer. Mine blew the temperature sensor right out of the radiator. I must have replaced at least three of the tiny lucas windshield wiper motors. I don't get the head of its ahead of itstime idea. There was nothing innovative about the car. Same concept as the Iso Grifo, Cobra, Jensen Interceptor. Take a european car and stuff a big american V8 in it.

Today I drove a 48K mile one-owner 951. WANT.

From SBC to Lucas...this is going downhill fast :D

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SoCal is Panteraland, Mayberry Lincoln Mercury loved the things from day one and promoted and sold a LOAD of them new and for many years always had one or two for sale used. I worked for a few years down the street from Lance Nist Pantera Specialists, and later on lived a few houses away from Don Peak (former pres of POA) who owned a 200k mile daily driver.

Pantera's are wicked fast cars, brutal like a Viper and bare, but how do you argue with the out of the box level of performance?

Unfortunately a Pantera is not a car for the tall and big.

Small block conversions are typically more expensive than rebuilds, in my opinion.

A Devek 6.4 liter engine used to cost upwards of $25,000. That is a nice 500 hp engine, but supercharged 5.0 4-valve motors can achieve that number [though with reduced reliability] for 1/3 that price.

Renegade Hybrids sells a kit that allows you to mount a chevrolet small-block V8 engine in the place of our original Porsche M28 motor. They tout the conversion as being lighter- but that is only the case if you mount an aluminum block chevy motor. A standard iron-block chevrolet small-block 5.7 liter engine weighs about the same as the big block Porsche engine. The chevrolet engine is smaller, but it uses a high-mounted alternator that interferes with the strut tower brace on our cars.

What's more, the Renegade Hybrids kit is incomplete- I was told that you have to find a part from the top of the bellhousing from some odd 1960's car in a junkyard in order to make this conversion work.

Don't get me wrong- I'm a 928 purist, but I would MUCH rather see a 928 contaminated with gm parts than parked or crushed. And I've been told that the 928's with the chevy engine drive exactly the same, sound the same, and have the same power and performance of the original engine.

Rob Budd up in Michigan has one; I took pictures of his car in 2003.

N!

Rob Budd's car:

N!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293091046.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293091069.jpg
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He sells hood liners. Classic 9 Leather Shop Porsche Interior Restoration Automobile Reupholstery Craftsman Great guy!

N!

Yes I had fun doing that . But not the part nearly putting use over the cliff. Dum a-- me

Aspkiller on Rennlist has a 91GT that is running an LS7. He is out on the west coast. The car is built for racing and he is selling a wide body kit and front spoiler for the later cars. It is a very nicely done car. The engine has been tweeked and I think it has also been dry sumped.

Yes, and then you demanded that I help you redistribute all the scattered gravel in the driveway from the skid marks you left as a result of that little stunt-1977

Other episodes included:

You smashing the front of Dad's Sonett III into the garage door whilst moving the Datsun B210-1980

You seen by the neighbors driving like a maniac at the tri-angular intersection of Boston Post Road and Thorten's Ferry II road in the 1980 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Back then is WAS your father's oldsmobile-1982

and the best one ever...

You taking said Oldsmobile out whilst chasing skirt...only to find out that after you raced up the back road behind the house that dad was waiting for you in the driveway. I can still remember it vividly "You're going to have a lot of explaining to do in the morning"-1982

Nobody ever found out, but I nearly burned down the house in 1985 as a result of playing with gasoline beside the garage. The difference was that *itch lady nextdoor, Mrs. Condon loved me and she hated you. Well, except for the time we scared the daylights out of their baby-sitter and they had to come home early...TOTALLY stumbling drunk wasted. She then accused me of setting that fire up in the woods...her kids had actually done it. I think I had it out with her around 1986 after she caught us burning things in the middle of the road and she chased us with her Volvo wagon.

Such a colourful childhood...

I am 6'3" and felt comfortable driving my Pantera. It certainly has the looks, even today like a 928. You could remove the trunk and get to the engine and ZF quite easily, also a cover came off between the seats to access the belts. I had the "L" model. It was mid engine. They all came with the 5 speed stick. As I mentioned, mine never had heating problems and was driven in summers in Chicago and Denver. It also came with Campagnola mag wheels.

I have no doubts a converted car can be wickedly fast if done up right. It is just to this point nobody has ever shared the total parts cost or disclosed the time involved to pull it off correctly. I don;t discount that the SBC is indeed a good engine, clearly it is.

I've seen Bob's car a few times and it looks like he did a very nice job on it. But his case is different, he pulled a 4.5 liter, not a 5.0 32V engine. Clearly, the conversion on that platform allows you to increase the performance into the 350 HP range for a reasonable amount when compared to boosting the 4.5 to the same levels. I'm not sure it's cheaper, but if you have a spent 4.5 I can see the merits. Pulling a perfect 32V to go SBC is a whole different situation in my opinion.

I guess my beef is that the 32V engine is just such a wonderful platform and has so much untapped potential that I don't see the sense in chucking it when you can bolt on some nice stuff and have a wickldly fast Porsche Super Car for less than $35K.

Additionally, some of the comments from the conversion people are downright crazy and in a lot of cases outright lies. I mean look at the original post on here and you can see someone claiming to be able to build a 600 HP small block from junkyard parts that only turns 6,000 RPM. That's a simple CFM calculation folks and the claim holds no validity whatsoever. I think that guy played Candyland one too many times in the 1980s.

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