PCA Rules Clarification, What class?

[euro911sc]

If I have a 74 body updated to SC with FG rear flares and bumpers running an 82 euro SC 3.0l stock CIS engine, what is the PCA racing class I would be placed in? F? Hopefully not a GT class...

Best regards,

-Michael

[ipapilot]

FG rear flares make you GT, I believe the other mods would have made you F. Sorryy...... Of course, this is just hypothetical since you said "IF", maybe your rear flares are metal

[304065]

Yep, Euro SC classes you in F, but you would need metal flares. You might make the argument that you are running as an Euro SC in F, and the fiberglass is "factory material" that qualifies you to run in E-prepared, but I doubt it would fly. The update-backdate rules have gotten VERY specific as we don't want people "building" cars for a particualr class. For the final rule, email Lance Weeks, rules chairman.

Welcome to GT-3 where the cars have 300 HP and weigh 2100#!

[78targa]

Are you guys sure that an '80 Euro is class "F"? I thought the cutoff was '81 for the Euros to get bumped to "F'. The big compression change was in the '81 model year to 9.8 to 1. I believe that car would fall in "G" in stock form. Did they change the years around in the '06 rule-book?

Oh, as for your car Michael....fiberglass is a definate bump to GT.




EDIT...I can't read today worth a flip...go to chime in and realize the year Michael stated was '82....

Yes, would have been class "F". Of course you would need to make sure the car was updated "in everyway" from '74.

FWIW the Euro 1980 is a neat thing as the compression is higher than the US's 8.5 to 1...I think it is 9 to 1 or so. and uses the large intake runners...Still falls in class "G".

Flame away...

[304065]

Consider yourself flamed.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by john_cramer
Welcome to GT-3 where the cars have 300 HP and weigh 2100#!

Sounds like you would be better off racing GTS with NASA. You would certainly be classed much more favorably.

Tom

[euro911sc]

Yeah... no way in hell I'm starting out in GT3

Roller already has FG rear flares on it so I'd have to swap them for steel. I would not have to swap out the FG bumpers, right?

What does 'in every way' really mean? As far as I can tell, the major difference was the engine/tranny and I got a set of those after the body is matched in steel whats left that is actually different?

Am I being stupid here? I already have a whole running '82 Euro car minus the interrior but it has a sunroof and it needs work to get it to race level. I found a complete, ready to go '74 non-sunroof minus the eng/tranny. Was thinking I just shove my current drive train in it and go...


-Michael

[Brant]

in every way really means just that.

if they want to get picky they can ding you for not having the correct wiring harness... or correct rear window defrost.. or wiring for that defrost.. or anything.

it means in every way
its a rule to protect those people that are really using stock cars.
if you have early wiring and early everything else, then your car may have a competetive advantage if you don't follow the "in every way" rule.

just go to GT
doesn't matter that much
you'll still have a blast.

brant

[304065]

Michael,

Before you spend time or money go to the club web site at www.pca.org and download the rule book and read through it a few times. It will answer all your questions like whether fiberglass bumpers are permitted. (answer, yes, with certain constraints).

Does your '74 already have a cage in it? What suspension? Why don't you get some steel flares and an engine from a '74 911 and run in H-prepared? That way you can benefit from the wider rear tires and the torque of the 2,7.

[mark_d_mcguire]

First, I'm surprised someone put FG SC fenders on a 74. I have only seen that with turbo flairs.

If your car is a 74, you will be fine with the wiring and interior things. The 74-83 are so close no scruit is going to pick on it for minor changes.

Things that will get you in trouble is the engine, tranny, and brakes.
Engine: comp ratios discussed above, just make sure you can document what you did, if anything to the engine.
tranny: No 7:31 R&P's, which were available in 74. Gear ratios for SC were the same throughout ( I think)
Brakes: No carrera brakes. THe brakes were standard from 74-83 on non-carrera models. These are not worth moving up in prepared, but can get you in trouble if caught.

By the way, a 74 with steel SC fenders and a 74 engine moves you up to G- prepared, not H. Without a 7:31, you would be toast.

Going to GT 3 would not be that fun. You would be the slowest car in your group, and in all likelyhood the slowest car on the track. Being the backmarker all the time would get old real fast for me.

By the way, I have a bolt-in cage and a fuel cell for sale if you are interested.

[304065]

Originally posted by mark_d_mcguire

By the way, a 74 with steel SC fenders and a 74 engine moves you up to G- prepared, not H.

How do you reach this conclusion? A 1974 911, with an 143 HP engine, weighing 2425#, is classed in I, flaring the fenders bumps you to H.

Perhaps you were thinking I said 911S which starts out in H.

[mark_d_mcguire]

You are right, a 74 non-S is an I car, but they are the exception aren't they?

[304065]

Yes, they are pretty rare. . . between the five bladed fan and the rust, there aren't many around in pristine shape. I know this intimately because I got my butt kicked badly by Fran Curro in a flared 75 911. In response to my question, "why are you so fast" he said, "I just keep my foot flat to the floor and don't lift off, ever." Racer's hyperbole, perhaps, and Fran's a great driver, but the fat rear tires and torque of the 2,7 make up for the additional 200 pounds.

[euro911sc]

Actually, I was considering buying a roller that is much further toward being finished than my current car. Its a 74 with FG rear SC flares. I read the PCA rules a few times and needed some clarifications which I got

I have a long way to go to get racing on track but would prefer not to do things twice. I also heard its a lot cheaper to buy someone elses car thats already sorted.

I guess i'll pass on the roller and keep working mine...

Best regards,

Michael

[Tim Stevens]

Buy a car that is ready to go! Ask me how I know - I have a car that is worth 20 and I have WAY over double that in it. You can find a great G/F race car that has been sorted for 20 or under. You can get a sorted I car for 12-16. Good Luck

[jdm61]

new guy here. I know a new chip will bump me up on class, but does it make me a "prepared" car? And if so, what else can be done without putting me into a GT class? I'm wondering about my wheels. i read that you get a one inch break in stock and 2 inches in prepared. My car has 9's on the back, but i read on the forum that it would have come with 8's because the TL's didn't get 9's until the '86 model year. Wondering if I can get away with 9's as the baseline since all TL's are in the same class and the majority of them came with 9's. If you put in Euro compression pistons do you go up one from Euro Carrera group or do you get bumped into GT?

[}{arlequin]

sorry for the hijack but it seems this attracted enough knowledgeable people to help me w/ a similar problem

if you take a stock class 73T, and give it turbo brakes and a '79 3.0, what class do you end up in. i'm having difficulty figuring this out.

would running 8" wheels bump me too?

thanks.

[Brant]

Hey guys...
definitely down load the FREE rule book.

read it twice.
no read it 3 times.

PCA club racing rules

all of the tricky little nuances will be answered.
regarding the 3.0 motor into a 73T
your car will now be classed as a 79SC unless it has other internal engine modifications.

this references back the original poster's question.
you will need to update everything about the car to be similar to a 79SC including air conditioning!

plus the brakes will at A MINIMUM bump you up one class from there (from the 79SC). I'm not familiar if that brake upgrade is within or without the prepaired rules.

someone will chime in that knows G and F classes better than I

but if you don't follow the update rule (for example adding A/C if it was standard in 1979) then you will jump to class GT.

the stock car rules are really about having a stock car.
When you build a new car you have to read the rule book first and then build to a specific class. I recently had to build a new car because the vin # was the wrong year for my club (not pca)
it was a pain to build a new car over something so trivial.
but it also allowed me to do all of the detail work the way I wanted to this time around.


brant

[78targa]

Brant,

I used to have a G class car and as far as A/C goes, since it was an option in at least 78, they allow you to run without it. I think A/C became standard in 80 or 81, but in speaking with the regional scrutineers (East Coast) they allow for the deletion in all SC's.

Honestly it isn't in their best interest to quibble over whether or not A/C should be in your car or not. They are mostly concerned that no performance modifications have been made and that you cxar meets the minimum weight. Beyond that as far as cosmetics go, it is usually up to the other competetors to issue a concern.

It is usually a gentleman's sport and with nothing but pride to be won, it is up to the competetor to properly classify their car.

Stock class is supposed to be stock. "In every way" is just that. The stock classes are designed for racing cars that require only safety modifications to race. Significant updating and backdating, in my opinion should be very limited. If you need to modify a car that much then it should be in a GT class.

I think the PCA rules are working their way towards that. OK, my $.02 and I agree with many of the above comments. Great information!


oh, Read the rule book multiple times before building or spending money...

[Slider79SC]

78 & 79 can run without AC according to the rules because you could option the car without it those years.

If you upgrade the brakes it will move your car up one class and it becomes a prepared car. At that point you can perform all of the prepared class modifications to keep it within that prepared class.

For example, 79 sc with 993 brakes makes it a F prepared car. Now you can run 2" wider wheels than stock and steel flared fenders, etc.....

But if you take off the injection and bolt on carbs you now moved up 2 classes to E prepared....

Be very careful, you can build yourself into GT real quick and have a non-competitive car......

read the rule book a lot before you start building or buying....