Proper technique when 911/930 oversteers?

[wayner]

I have some good footage in this video of something I did well

Here is the scenario:

(catching a power on slide when exiting the pits, all hands, no throttle adjustment, no drama)
And not long after, something that I didn't do so well (actually I did it well, just never want to get so behind in a situation that I have to do it again)


Strong midrange but peaky extreme power band from 5.5k to 7k
Snow on the track last fall.

The tank slapper happened when I just momentarily lifted after it started to slide from being too abrupt on the throttle for the conditions. Note I said lifted (the video will automatically rewind and play in slow motion. Listen for the idiot on the throttle).

I tried to keep my foot in in but reflexes kicked in before I overcame them and got back into it.
I recovered by getting back on the gas, but also notice the hands. NOTICE THE HANDS! especially in the slow-mo replay section of the video
nobody is fast enough, so don't rely on reaction time.
I know of no other way when you fall that far behind in your steering (other than this or two feet down and stop)

Instead, follow winder's advice and get ahead in your steering. I got caught off guard and was too slow. I can't imagine ever having reaction time fast enough for that one. Instead, anticipate and react before the car does as per Scott.

Here is the link to the video of where I got it so wrong that I was looking out the back window at one point

Getting back on the throttle settled the car and me at which point my moment became a non issue.
(Rewind begins after heading up the hill as the music kicks back in)
Video - Sending the 73 back to the crusher!

This should be used as an instructional video of how NOT to do it I thought the song title was appropriate...

Fun starts at 1:18
and again at 1:50, when "something big is calling me"


EDIT: TED's slide in the picture in the next post was likely much more deliberate in action rather than my non deliberate reaction in my video.

Originally Posted by wayner

Catch me!

P.S.
J. Edwards was nice enough to allow me to use his song
Tell him I sent you. maybe he'll be nice enough to let me use another one.www.jEdwardsBand.com

[ted]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Instructors are great, but not porsche 911 experts...

You need an old 911 expert...finding one is difficult too in the new Porsche PCA environment.

[ted]

Makes me cringe when driver's get so far behind they intentionally let go of the wheel on corner exit to unwind the wheel.
Lifting hands off the wheel while depending on front caster for self righting or straightening out the car imho is not being in control of the car.
I know of an AX driver that does this routinely.
I prefer to always hold the wheel knowing exactly where my front tires are pointed.

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have some good footage in this video of something I did well

Here is the scenario:

(catching a power on slide when exiting the pits, all hands, no throttle adjustment, no drama)
And not long after, something that I didn't do so well (actually I did it well, just never want to get so behind in a situation that I have to do it again)


Strong midrange but peaky extreme power band from 5.5k to 7k
Snow on the track last fall.

The tank slapper happened when I just momentarily lifted after it started to slide from being too abrupt on the throttle for the conditions. Note I said lifted (the video will automatically rewind and play in slow motion. Listen for the idiot on the throttle).

I tried to keep my foot in in but reflexes kicked in before I overcame them and got back into it.
I recovered by getting back on the gas, but also notice the hands. NOTICE THE HANDS! nobody is fast enough, so don't rely on reaction time.
I know of no other way when you fall that far behind in your steering.

Instead, follow winder's advice and get ahead in your steering. I got caught off guard and was too slow. I can't imagine ever having reaction time fast enough for that one. Instead, anticipate and react before the car does as per Scott.

Here is the link to the video of where I got it so wrong that I was looking out the back window at one point

Getting back on the throttle settled the car and me at which point my moment became a non issue.
(Rewind begins after heading up the hill as the music kicks back in)
Video - Sending the 73 back to the crusher!

This should be used as an instructional video of how NOT to do it I thought the song title was appropriate...

Fun starts at 1:18
and again at 1:50, when "something big is calling me"


EDIT: TED's slide in the picture in the next post was likely much more deliberate in action rather than my non deliberate reaction in my video.

Saw the video, but not sure what you would have done differently? Looks like the back end was coming out, you eased off the throttle and countersteered... Looks like you almost OVER countered and the car was going to spin the other way???

What would you have done differently?

Part of me almost wonders if its the counter steering that gets people in trouble in this scenario? If, after the back end started to slip out you eased off the throttle and LET GO OF THE STEERING WHEEL (GASP!), the car would center itself, no? At least thats what happens when I screw around with the porsche on snow in Wisconsin .

I don't mean to say "let go" fo the steering wheel and hold your hands up. Rather, just loosen your grip so the steering wheel finds neutral, so the car doesn't spin the other way...

Is that stupid? Silly? Prevents the risk of OVER countersteering and going to spin the otherway when the car finds traction...

Seems to work on ice and snow...

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by ted

Makes me cringe when driver's get so far behind they intentionally let go of the wheel on corner exit to unwind the wheel.
Lifting hands off the wheel while depending on front caster for self righting or straightening out the car imho is not being in control of the car.
I know of an AX driver that does this routinely.
I prefer to always hold the wheel knowing exactly where my front tires are pointed.

You posted just as I was typing... . loosely letting go does seem to neutralise the car. Doesn't mean you don't have control, as nothing keeps you from grabbing back on...

[wayner]

Originally Posted by ted

Makes me cringe when driver's get so far behind they intentionally let go of the wheel on corner exit to unwind the wheel.
Lifting hands off the wheel while depending on front caster for self righting or straightening out the car imho is not being in control of the car.
I know of an AX driver that does this routinely.
I prefer to always hold the wheel knowing exactly where my front tires are pointed.

EXACTLY!
Thats why I say that this is not the right thing to do.
I wish I had a few laps with you first, but it was a good lesson that I will never forget

I let go of the wheel 3 times in that tank slapper to get it back under control.
It saved my ass when I was on my way around, but I never want to get so far behind in my steering that I ever have to use that technique again.

Its in my arsenal if I need it, but it really is a hail Mary attempt at that stage.
If it was PCA event I would have just put two feet down instead. (In this case there was nobody around me but angry looking armco, so I used this method).

Originally Posted by bpu699

You posted just as I was typing... . loosely letting go does seem to neutralise the car. Doesn't mean you don't have control, as nothing keeps you from grabbing back on...

Loosely letting go is just a different degree of the same thing.
Don't get so far behind in the first place.

(Ideally what I would have done is been ready for it to step out, and once stepped out, decisively steered back the other way moments before the first slide ended.)

In TED's picture, I'll bet as per Winders, he was already starting to steer back in to the corner even though the back end hadn't finished its drift.
(Getting ahead of it, the front end is out of play, it dampens the pendulum effect and the tanks slapper doesn't begin)

In my case, the first time it stepped back in I was in deep trouble and way too far behind already and it just got worse from there)

What else I have learned to do differently
Don;t lift in the first place. Just wait and let the traction catch up by keeping the weight off the front wheels and solidly onto the rear.
The other thing that I DID do was pull into the pits and invite a talented old 911 driver show me how he drives beyond the limit

Hopefully this is a good lesson in how NOT to drive a 911. Remember that this all happened not because the rear stepped out, but because I then lifted abruptly
At this point, I'm out of talent and will defer to the experts...
I'm all ears

[ted]

Originally Posted by bpu699

You posted just as I was typing... . loosely letting go does seem to neutralise the car. Doesn't mean you don't have control, as nothing keeps you from grabbing back on...

Practicing on snow is a great way to practice pitch and catch.
But why do you feel the need to let go?

Yes when I first started to track a 911, when I was too far behind on my steering inputs I too tried letting go of the wheel and found it was an improvement.
As an instructor it's unsettling to ride with a student that likes to let go of the wheel.
When you let go of the wheel you disconnect your self from all the feedback your hands receive from holding the wheel.
How can you make brake or throttle corrections when you are not holding the wheel?

Here I am making big corrections on a very hot day with soft melting greasy slicks.
I doubt you can find a place on this video where you would advocate taking your hands off the steering wheel.
https://youtu.be/aB9ubMvxLl8?t=3m47s

[wayner]

Ted, I love listening to the throttle in your video.

It really demonstrates well, how to take the throttle out of play by not messing with it.
In my video I messed with it, which is what got me into all that trouble in the first place.

Your also demonstrates really well how to get ahead in your steering catching things before they happen versus having to react after the drama has begun.

Its guys like you that have taught me to be safer. Nothing about driving a 911 will help you learn this faster than sitting with some one like you.
Thats one of the great things about PCA

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by wayner

Ted, I love listening to the throttle in your video.

It really demonstrates well, how to take the throttle out of play by not messing with it.
In my video I messed with it, which is what got me into all that trouble in the first place.

Your also demonstrates really well how to get ahead in your steering catching things before they happen versus having to react after the drama has begun.

Its guys like you that have taught me to be safer. Nothing about driving a 911 will help you learn this faster than sitting with some one like you.
Thats one of the great things about PCA

So if the back end starts sliding out under acceleration you would recommend keeping the throttle steady and just counter steering?

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by ted

Practicing on snow is a great way to practice pitch and catch.
But why do you feel the need to let go?

Yes when I first started to track a 911, when I was too far behind on my steering inputs I too tried letting go of the wheel and found it was an improvement.
As an instructor it's unsettling to ride with a student that likes to let go of the wheel.
When you let go of the wheel you disconnect your self from all the feedback your hands receive from holding the wheel.
How can you make brake or throttle corrections when you are not holding the wheel?

Here I am making big corrections on a very hot day with soft melting greasy slicks.
I doubt you can find a place on this video where you would advocate taking your hands off the steering wheel.
https://youtu.be/aB9ubMvxLl8?t=3m47s

Geesh... amazing how many corrections you need to make every corner! That steering wheel looks like its constantly flipping right to left and then back again!

Second, what track is that? I didn't see any trees, barriers, armco, etc... Very different from the Milwaukee Mile... Hard to practice on a track with lots of immovable objects .

[safe]

Originally Posted by ted

Makes me cringe when driver's get so far behind they intentionally let go of the wheel on corner exit to unwind the wheel.
Lifting hands off the wheel while depending on front caster for self righting or straightening out the car imho is not being in control of the car.
I know of an AX driver that does this routinely.
I prefer to always hold the wheel knowing exactly where my front tires are pointed.

Happened to me to at my latest track day, slow corner and I pushed a little to much:
At 8:40 something https://youtu.be/DZ_1eqCjH8g?t=517

I was experimenting with camera placement so anybody gets sick, I'm really sorry.

I let go, because I'm not fast enough and I have learned to do that on auto-x and slaloms.
On tight 180 degree turns I can brake into the corner to get the tail out, let go of the steering wheel and let the car slide around and when the car points in the right direction grab the wheel and power out. Doesn't work every time, but its fun when it does...

[winders]

Originally Posted by KaiB

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

But he's FAR uglier....

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

Wait, you know Scott?

--DD

Like you guys would win a beauty contest....

[wayner]

Originally Posted by safe

Happened to me to at my latest track day, slow corner and I pushed a little to much:
At 8:40 something https://youtu.be/DZ_1eqCjH8g?t=517

Bpu699, Start listening to the throttle at 8:37 of that video. From there you should be able to detect the exact moment that he messed with the throttle, upsetting the car. Tank slapper would have followed if he hadn't let go,
but if he hadn't messed with the throttle he could have rode it out. The trick is to steer back into the corner before the slide comes to an end.
Thats what you see Ted doing with those quick little dabs of the wheel

[ted]

Chuckwalla just east of Palm Springs Ca.
Bike safe run offs, great 80mph sweepers but short straights last I checked.
That was a Low grip video with wrong compound tires on 106 degree day, the 911 was loose.

Here is decade old video tank slapper driver drove it to the end.
http://vid148.photobucket.com/albums/s39/TedDrake/ChuckwallaFUN_0001.mp4

me in a slapper never let go.
https://youtu.be/AVM8-WhXheY?t=7m45s

A slapper or letting go is a result of something else, something to avoid.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by ted

A slapper or letting go is a result of something else, something to avoid.

You can say that again!

BPU699, suddenly getting off the throttle gives back traction, with a 911 its just at the wrong end of the car (suddenly the very light front wheels are given weight and massive grip and can go exactly where they are pointing)

Not the best example, but watch this. and imagine it is a 911

Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MB69sJ-_Gs&t=6m30s
Stop the video at exactly 6:34

The car is now straight.

The car is still carrying a lot of forward momentum.

The front wheels are turned left and not straight ahead.
(Prior to that the wheels were left in relation to the car, but forward in relation to the momentum).

With the front wheels turned left while the car is moving forward, the car quickly turns left. The back end is still trying to go straight down the track.

Spin! (or tank slapper in my case)

[wayner]

People will argue the pont about rotation versus straighten but the reality is the rear follows the front. If the front wheels were corrected a fraction of a second sooner as TED and other experts do, the pendulum effect would be dampened

Ted demonstrated that in his video. The white car in his next video did not

Here is the best I can find to focus on the front wheels and why shifting weight to them at this point is a bad idea (aside from having all that engine out the rear to also have to deal with)

[wayner]

At this point he is already way behind in his steering
(as demonstrated by his rear seen swinging around but his front wheels not yet correcting)
.
.



so, suddenly the car darts left and away we go as he then gets further behind and tries to counter steer right.


.
.


(at this point, he should be quickly going back left again to arrive at the right point for the front wheels when the rear wheels suddenly get there, thus ahead of the next swing)
All letting go of the wheel in a 911 does is react faster than we can, but that does;t work quite the same in all cars. Its not the best idea

So getting ahead in your steering is important, but in a 911 equally important is not to mess with the throttle, lifting and make it worse by giving even more traction to the front and less to the rear..

[wayner]

I found these videos:

Pat long and Chris Harris drive like Ted!

Ted’s video - textbook 911 control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB9ubMvxLl8&feature=youtu.be&t=3m47s

Someone else sliding an early 911 at goodwood
This video proves why we want to race a SWB Porsche 911 at Goodwood | Total 911

goodwood 911 with Chris Harris sliding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1SLQsUVb48


Pat Long in a 67 sliding around and even getting in too hot but never letting go of the wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm79A8hvDQ8

Maybe this can all be learned at a different frequency of steering on a 356?
goodwood 356 with Chris Harris sliding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6qB_Kwn9M

Comparison of Naturally aspirated driving versus turbo
(See 10:00 into this video where Long catches the 935 turbos on corner exit while they tip toe around the corner before pulling the trigger once pointed straight. The unnerving thing about early turbos is that at neutral throttle they can seem to suddenly accelerate depending where you are on boost)

Pat long in a 75 carrera 3.0 against turbo 935s. starts at 10:00 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTaJ62xW8Jk

Now for something completely differentWatch the hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7gQFXCVvI

[ted]

Originally Posted by wayner

I found these videos:
Pat long and Chris Harris drive like Ted!

haha, thank you I wish.

[bpu699]

Thanks guys, follow up question about taking high speed sweeping turns in a 930...

Let's say you are going 80mph through a consistent radius turn...

If you are traveling a steady 80, and then let off the throttle suddenly, does the car continue its arc, or does it spin out?

I would think that since the suspension is evenly loaded, it wouldn't spin? Correct?

Whereas if you were accelerating, and the rear is squatted down, and you lift off...it spins?