Proper technique when 911/930 oversteers?

[bpu699]

Ok, everything I have read states that these cars have a propensity to snap oversteer... the 930 especially. I gooled, and still cant find what the proper driver action is should this occur...

Lets say you are driving into a corner at 45 mph... You are starting to accelerate out...

And the rear end starts to slide out...

Whats the correct action to take?

Every thread I have ever seen mentions that you should never lift off mid throttle. Yet, by habit, I gently lifted off the throttle when it happened in the 930 and the car just straightened out (back tired got traction again). It definitely didn't make the situation worse, like I was expecting.

So whats the proper thing to do? I have heard from some that if the back end starts to go out you need to give it lots of gas! Some folks say to not change the position of the gas pedal at all. Some say to gently easy the throttle back...

Is the correct thing do do different based on WHY the back end starting going out?
For example, was it sliding out when gas was applied, vs due to mid corner braking? Do you do the opposite of what caused it?

Is it different if the back end is sliding out if 2 tires had gone off into the dirt (been told NOT to try to get back on the track as it will spin the other way)...

Would appreciate any words of wisdom. When I was doing the HPDE I was so paranoid that I would spin it in every corner that I was going 1/2 the speed of the other novices in the corners...

[safe]

You're correct in your assessment. It depends!
If you go on power to fast/much you need to ease off, not lift off completely because then you CAN go into another kind of oversteer...

So if you go into a skid, you need to "catch it", much quicker than you would have to in a front engined car, figure out what to do with the throttle. Then wait the skid out and let the car scrub of some speed. When the speed has come down to a level that the grip will support, the car will straighten out and you power on to the next corner.

The thing with the 911 is that you need to catch it fast otherwise it gets out of hand quickly. If you compare it to a Porsche 944, the 944 is almost impossible to spin around. You can drive a 944 looking straight ahead through the side window and just wait for it to come back or just keep provoking it if you like going sideways...

[Trackrash]

Car setup has a lot to do with it. You may need some adjustments, if the car feels loose.

You may want to participate in some autocrosses. That way you can get familiar with your car's handling in a slower, safer environment.

It is true that if you go into a turn a bit too fast, then lift off, there is a good chance you will spin. In that case it is best to stay steady on the throttle and counter steer until you scrub off speed and regain control, if you can. Now in a turbo, when the boost comes on mid corner, it could also cause oversteer.

I used to instruct in a performance driving school where throttle steering and other car control techniques were practiced. I would recommend this as it is the best way to learn you cars limits in a safe environment.

[safe]

+1 on autox and similar events. Practice is the key, especially practicing not to panic.... :-)

[winders]

When you really start to understand your car, you will be able to anticipate the over rotation and counter it as or just before it happens instead of after.

[RichardNew]

Trailing throttle oversteer is your friend.

Get off the throttle mid corner and let the car rotate. As soon as it's pointed in the correct direction get back on the throttle. Derek Bell taught me that trick about 20 years ago.

Just practice it a lot.

Richard Newton
Project 911 is Back

[Driven97]

Originally Posted by winders

When you really start to understand your car, you will be able to anticipate the over rotation and counter it as or just before it happens instead of after.

So true. The 911 is inherently unstable. Like throwing a dart backwards, the heavy end wants to be in front.

The best course of action is to be on top of things. There will be times where a bit more throttle will reduce rotation. There will be times where a little opposite lock will be just fine. But you need to catch it early. Slow to react and you are in trouble.

I like to describe driving a 911 at the limit as being similar to balancing a broomstick on your hand. It wants to fall over. But if you are skilled, very tiny corrections can keep it upright virtually still. Less skill or less concentration and large, clumsy corrections are needed. Only practice will help.

Get out to autocrosses or skidpad events so you can get right up to that limit in a safe environment. Spin it so you see what happens when it does go. See when you can lift mid-corner and how much. While they are challenging cars to drive, they are also extremely rewarding to get things right in.

[cstreit]

As a general rule, I lift slightly in higher HP cars (930, GT3, etc..) to help eliminate any power induced wheel spin while counter-steering.

In a 200HP car, I would keep my foot steady and countersteer.

In a 930 with the rather violent tip-in of the turbo you should probably back out slightly. That said, back out too much and you're likely to snap back the other way and have a tank slapper on your hands - I wouldn't want to drive one on the track.

[bpu699]

Thanks guys...

So if you are sliding out while accelerating, ease off a bit an dcounter steer... seems to be the consensus, and thats what worked for me too...

Can you confirm that if you are sliding out due to lifting off the throttle mid curve, the solution is to step on the throttle? IE. Do the opposite of what caused it?

Hope its never an issue, as I am driving at 60% or so... I was at the Milwaukee Mile, and all of the high speed corners (its an oval with an infield portion) have cement walls around the perimeter... Zero run off. So, spinning in the sweepers is an absolute no-no... I am driving through these at 40-50 mph or so, which may be too cautious...

There is one corner on the infield that is a hairpin, and thats the one that the end slides out at even if going 30 mph... But thats a "safe" corner with run-off...

Next year plan to do road america... more areas with runoff, so I can be slightly mores aggressive...

[racer]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Can you confirm that if you are sliding out due to lifting off the throttle mid curve, the solution is to step on the throttle? IE. Do the opposite of what caused it?

When you lift off the gas mid corner, you are transferring weight from the back of the car to the front. At the same time, all the now un-weighted mass is at the back and ready to come around. So, yes "don't lift mid corner" is a 911 trademark. By staying on the power you keep the rear of the car in check. And any counter steering is used to make your corner larger and "catch" the car as you fight for grip.

Remember, no matter the car, you are trying to keep it balanced on 4 tire contact patches, each one about the size of a piece of notebook paper (easy size reference). Learning how to do this takes practice.

Get out to an Autocross or HPDE to learn more and have some fun!

[winders]

Originally Posted by racer

When you lift off the gas mid corner, you are transferring weight from the back of the car to the front. At the same time, all the now un-weighted mass is at the back and ready to come around. So, yes "don't lift mid corner" is a 911 trademark. By staying on the power you keep the rear of the car in check. And any counter steering is used to make your corner larger and "catch" the car as you fight for grip.

Remember, no matter the car, you are trying to keep it balanced on 4 tire contact patches, each one about the size of a piece of notebook paper (easy size reference). Learning how to do this takes practice.

Get out to an Autocross or HPDE to learn more and have some fun!

Let's call it transferring load. The mass is still at the back which is why the car wants to come around. You don't want to mash the throttle...you want to be deliberate with the throttle when the car is at the limits of traction.

[KaiB]

Originally Posted by bpu699

thanks guys...

So if you are sliding out while accelerating, ease off a bit an dcounter steer... Seems to be the consensus, and thats what worked for me too...

these actions should occur just prior to ay action by the car; i.e. If the car is "sliding", they become reactions and are thus a bit late.

can you confirm that if you are sliding out due to lifting off the throttle mid curve, the solution is to step on the throttle? Ie. Do the opposite of what caused it?

yep, but again, we don't want to cause these events unless we want to.

next year plan to do road america... More areas with runoff, so i can be slightly mores aggressive...

you need seat time, instruction and a chance to relax behind the wheel. It's all good, just go do it.

kb

[wayner]

Originally Posted by winders

When you really start to understand your car, you will be able to anticipate the over rotation and counter it as or just before it happens instead of after.

THIS

While I have become very proud of my ability to save a terribly out of shape 911, I am very embarrassed that I let it get so out of shape in the first place.

What I have noticed about any good 911 driver (the ones that are better than me) is that they are always correcting even though from the passenger seat, the car doesn't seem to be moving around.

What I have learned is that when these cars signal their intention, it is to late.
I'm learning to expect my car to slide everywhere rather than begin caught off guard and having to react.

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

[KaiB]

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

But he's FAR uglier....

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Wait, you know Scott?

--DD

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by wayner

THIS

While I have become very proud of my ability to save a terribly out of shape 911, I am very embarrassed that I let it get so out of shape in the first place.

What I have noticed about any good 911 driver (the ones that are better than me) is that they are always correcting even though from the passenger seat, the car doesn't seem to be moving around.

What I have learned is that when these cars signal their intention, it is to late.
I'm learning to expect my car to slide everywhere rather than begin caught off guard and having to react.

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

Details please...

So if you are going through a corner on the throttle a bit and the rear end starts to slide (or you anticipate with your spidey-sense that it might), what the right thing to do?

1) left off the throttle a bit so you regain traction (realizing that in a turbo that might be a big deal) and countersteer
2) DON'T Lift, and counter steer, sliding around a bit (AKA drifting )
3) Add more gas, and counter steer...

[wayner]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Details please...

So if you are going through a corner on the throttle a bit and the rear end starts to slide (or you anticipate with your spidey-sense that it might), what the right thing to do?

1) left off the throttle a bit so you regain traction (realizing that in a turbo that might be a big deal) and countersteer
2) DON'T Lift, and counter steer, sliding around a bit (AKA drifting )
3) Add more gas, and counter steer...

WAIT JUST A MINUTE!

You are way ahead on the learning curve.
1)Back up to the corner entrance. Unless you are an expert, you should have gotten all your slowing down done in a straight line.

2) When you turn in you should start accelerating towards the apex. Unless your ham fisted with the throttle, the more gas you give it, the more the weight transfers behind the wheels, giving you more traction that allows you to accelerate more. The faster you go the faster you can go at that point.

NOTE:My light switch power band on my peaky 3.0 in my light car will brake the tires loose on tighter corners, if I am cornering and accelerating hard when it hits at 5.5 grand. I just ride it out and don;t do anything with the throttle until it straightens out. In a turbo you may want to square off the corner more so that you are pretty straight by the time the turbo kicks in. I wouldn't want to be learning to catch a turbo induced spin, because backing off the throttle is a terrible idea unless you are already skilled and very gentle.

[wayner]

P.S.
If you are asking how to learn how to drift a 911, that is an entirely different question.

[ted]

Your question seems like a basic driver/car control issue.
Go to a PCA event and ask an instructor to teach you how to pitch and catch your 911.
Once you know how to do both you can intentionally on slowing pitch the rear end out to rotate the car.
That is how we steer the the 911 with the gas pedal.
If your car is a 930 then catching it may be more difficult.
If you have a 930 try to left foot brake to keep the car loaded while avoiding excessive uncontrolled weight transfer.

I'd avoid trying to learn these skills on high speed tracks.

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by ted

Your question seems like a basic driver/car control issue.
Go to a PCA event and ask an instructor to teach you how to pitch and catch your 911.
Once you know how to do both you can intentionally on slowing pitch the rear end out to rotate the car.
That is how we steer the the 911 with the gas pedal.
If your car is a 930 then catching it may be more difficult.
If you have a 930 try to left foot brake to keep the car loaded while avoiding excessive uncontrolled weight transfer.

I'd avoid trying to learn these skills on high speed tracks.

Plan to do some PCA events next year. So far have done 1 SCCA and have another in a week. Instructors are great, but not porsche 911 experts...