Best car to start getting semi-serious about racing

[2mAn]

Hey Pelicans, I bought a 08 C350 at the beginning of the year and my E30 has slowly become more and more of a weekend car. Lately the idea has been to make my swapped car BAR legal and sell it. The plan was to then buy a 914 to become a total track oriented car. Lately thats seemed to be the clear best idea, but after taking the E30 to autocross again this last month, its tough to think that the 914 will be better. Then came the moment when I had to give up on my other project and am left with a 944S setup then I thought, an early 944 with this motor would be pretty awesome too... Too many cars and too many decisions.

Short version:
#1: Keep the E30 that weighs 2450# and puts down 225whp. It has a rebuilt motor and will soon be CA legal
#2: Sell the E30 and get the 2270cc 914 and build that to be a racecar
#3: Sell the E30 and get a 944, start building that and then swap the "S" motor
#4: Sell the E30 and get a Boxster. Mid-Engine trumps all the others and the modern motor is the better way to go.
#5: Something else I havent thought of?...

Thoughts? Any personal experience?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Miata?

The 914 will likely wind up being quite expensive. The 2270cc motors are not cheap, for one thing.

--DD

[2mAn]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

Miata?

The 914 will likely wind up being quite expensive. The 2270cc motors are not cheap, for one thing.

--DD

Hey Dave,

I figured the Miata would come up in the conversation. The 914 I'm looking at already has a 2270 built.

[RichardNew]

If you're serious you have to think about a Miata.

If it's German it's going to cost you money.

Are you trying to win at autocross? That's a huge factor.

Track days on the other hand are non-competitive events. Everybody wins at an HPDE. Track days are all about having fun.

The basic rule for winning is to buy what the fast guys are running. In most cases that's going to be a Miata.

Richard Newton
Tech Stuff

[2mAn]

Not trying to win. Mostly having fun on track days to improve my skills.I guess what I meant when I said serious was that the E30 or the potential next car can be more dedicated to track events. I dont want it to be a trailer only status.

This is the biggest "con" in the pros/cons list for the E30. It has a great stereo, still has a back seat,etc and I really dont want to gut it out. I dont expect this car to have all the creature comforts, and in fact probably wouldnt have any, but I dont want to gut this car out. I like the car I built the way it is, but know theres more on the table. This is why I feel like I could sell it and get a good chunk of money to put towards the next car. Performance wise, its way ahead of any of the other options.

914s biggest PROs are that I can get a pre-smog car, they are light and I found one that already has the motor I would want for it. It doesnt need as much power as the rest to be fun. The 2270 would be plenty. I could slowly build a 6 for it as budget allows. plus mid-engine!

944s biggest PROs are that they are cheap and plentiful, Spec944 seems fairly popular and I have the engine I would want to use already. downside is that its the slowest car to start with and I would need to get it smog-legal ...-ish ... IF someone would just buy my 944S motor I could scratch this idea immediately.

Boxster PROs are that they are fairly cheap right now to start with, but I fear these would get the most expensive when it comes to modifying. I dream about getting a roller and throwing a 996 motor in it and starting there, but that would already take most of the money I would get from the E30 sale and it would get more expensive from there. However, this would be a car that could stay fairly smog compliant as the 3.6 would be indistinguishable from the 2.5 that would be in that roller. Found a 2002 MY clean title roller, and a 2003 996 motor already

Another option Ive considered is selling both and going all-in on a Cayman. Wouldnt be the best daily, but I could give it a good balance of the two and just have one car.

[Cory M]

Sounds to me like you should just stick with your E30 for a while. Address the safety items first (seat, harness, bar/cage), then buy some NT01 tires or similar and make suspension improvements as needed. If you aren't doing wheel to wheel racing there is no need to completely gut the car. Most of the cars at the average Speedventures (or similar) track day are driven to the track, only about 25% are trailered.

944Spec is fun if you are racing but not the best or most fun platform for DE. 914's are cool too but very old and may be more expensive to run. Boxster parts can be expensive and they have many weaknesses (trans, engine, uprights) so not a good choice on a tight budget. Cayman is a great car but most recommend some cooling and oiling issues address before a lot of tracking. Miata is always and option, cheap and cheerful, lots of good local resources and series to run.

POC is racing at Cal Speedway next month and there will be Boxsters, Caymans, 944's, and 914's out there. You should check it out and talk to some of the drivers about their cars.

[racer]

Keep E30.. Learn to drive better.. it will slowly become a "trailer" car (any serious track car always does nowadays). Then decide what you want to race!

Or, chuck it all and just go racing in something fun and simple like Spec Miata or Spec Racer Ford!

[Charles Freeborn]

Build the E 30 over time. I've seen lots of them with m3 engines and they go like stink. Lots of parts. Strip it to the studs, good seat, harness and bar.
'round here the "Pro3" class of 3 series BMW racing is very popular - cheap racing and VERY competitive. Also know of some that are track only DE cars - just for fun. Good tires, seat, harness and go wring it's neck.
Absolute best bang for the buck racing is a Miata. I just saw one that a fellow bought recently for $13k. Complete car very well set up, ready to race.
944 is a good track car, but will be much more costly to run than the Bimmer or Miata.
The 914 as a built car is a non starter. You'll never be in the hunt without spending lots and lots...

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I will speak to the 914, as that's most of what I know--

Not all 2270cc motors are built alike. There are some that are hand-grenades with no pin, and there are others that look like they will take years of normal use. Not sure about racing use.

The 2270 will put you into a "cubic dollar" class, where you will be a rolling chicane. (Or DFL at the autoX.) Unless you are only doing DE and the sanctioning body groups you by lap times or some metric that isn't "amount of improvement to the car" based.

914s are great little pocket race cars, but some parts are pretty hard to find now. There are people who have started making their own parts to sell (e.g., Mikey from 914rubber) but those are generally small-batch made as-they-can by an enthusiast with a day job. You'll want a cage with good bracing for anything serious in a 914, because their reputation as "flexy fliers" is not that far overstated.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 914, but as a dual-use track car it may not be the best choice.

I hear that Spec Box has pretty deep fields in So Cal, probably deeper than Spec 944. That would be something I would look hard at.

Or just buy one of the thirty-zillion Spec Piñata cars out there and call it a day...

--DD

[Sicklyscott]

I've been through this....hell in going through it now!

All the research that I've done leads me to believe the best car for track time is the car you own now. You're already familiar with its behavior and its mechanics. If you feel there's still a lot left on the table I'd challenge you to go find it! Learn to drive and have fun. Putting yourself into something different isn't the answer.

Now, as I said I'm going through this myself. I'm dying for an e36 M3. IF I were to build a fun reliable drive to the track and beat on it then drive home car, that would be it.

[2mAn]

wow, some great responses came out of this. Its definitely been feeling lately that the best thing to do is to keep the E30 and improve the driver.

@Charles Freeborn, I lived in Seattle for 7 years before moving to SoCal about 3 years ago and I know ALL about PRO3. I blame those guys for taking all the 885 heads!! haha I couldnt find a replacement for mine and it started the avalanche of the 24v build. I still want to build a high compression M20 someday, but for now my aluminum block M52 will do. Mine has the M3 cams already in it so its a "baby M3" motor at 2.8L but my power to weight ratio trumps those swaps. Kevin Doyle basically built this car for me, this was a motor he was going to use and I bought it from him. Love that guy!

@Dave. I love 914s and my biggest fear selling the E30 to get one is that its a "grass is greener" scenario and I would regret losing what I have. Thanks for the insight, I may still get one down the road, but it wont be to replace my E30.

I am looking at a pair of Recaro SRDs to replace my Recaro SEs that I currently have. I really want to run with the Alfa club and they require a 5pt harness with any car older than a 2000 MY. Lame, but I think its a step in the right direction.

Thanks everyone! I will still keep my eye on this thread

[RichardNew]

Keep the E30.

Spend your money on sticky tires and improving your driving.

Richard Newton

[Tobra]

What Richard said.

Or buy a Spec Miata. If you really want to improve your skills, a momentum car, cheap consumables and a spec race every weekend with 30 other cars is going to make you learn to drive.

[2mAn]

Is the poll showing up for everyone? Not getting any votes lol

[Cajundaddy]

It all depends on your goals. If you are only doing this for kicks and grins and seriously don't plan to compete, any car will be fine. You can learn performance driving skills in all of them.

If you would like to compete at some point, choose a car with a large class (Boxster/944) and build it to be class competitive. Then you will have some great benchmarks to measure your driving skill against. The last thing you want to do is buy/build a one-off frankenPorsche that gets stuffed in Unlimited class against the 800hp shop-owner specials running a fresh set of Yoko slicks every event. If you want to compete, compete to win. Winning can be fun. No one wants to hold down DFL every event because you stuffed yourself in with the bottomless budget Disney and Walton boys.

Seriously, if you want to start doing DEs, pick a car and go. Just have decent tires, good brakes and make sure it is mechanically sound. Lots of opportunities in SoCal and a stock car is often the best place to start. After you have a dozen track days experience the mod choices will become much more clear. Buy some fresh tires and get out there!

Here are some upcoming DEs near you that accept novice drivers in stock cars:

http://www.zone8.org/calendar.php

This might be a great place to begin your journey into performance driving. It is arguably one of the best schools in the country:
http://www.pcasdr.org/event/pca-sdr-performance-driving-school-friday-evening-chalk-talk-black-forest/

[2mAn]

thanks @Cajundaddy, I have considered building a Spec car, the only downside to that is that I feel like it would become a trailered car, to be done right anyways. It would be cool to start with a somewhat correct car (most likely a 944 due to budget) and build it into a Spec car. I think for now I will keep the E30 because even with the motor swap it will be a ton of fun, and in addition to that I already know the car, its fairly well setup already and if I joined Spec30 (or SpecE30??) I could sell my motor and that would easily fund a solid M20 and a full cage or somerthing. The rest of the chassis is close enough at this point. I wanted to sign up for something you linked but Im not a PCA member, but Im willing to bet that the BMW CCA (which I AM a member of) would have something similar. Time to go shopping on motorsport.reg haha

[2mAn]

Just started looking at the Spec944 rules and it looks like the 16v "S" motor isn't allowed. Keeps looking like the E30 is the best way to go

[cockerpunk]

spec944s and spec boxsters are exponentially more expensive than spec miatas. its all the litte stuff, you can get OEM wheels bearings for miatas, for 40 bucks, shipped, and change them out in 30 minutes. a 944 will cost you nearly 10x that for the wheel bearing itself, and at least 4 or 5 times that time. so while the cost of entry might be similar, the cost to actually run a car, the miata will ALWAYS be cheaper.

autocross is different animal. if you are serious or even semi-serious about it, it will require a long examination of the rulebook. what class you want to run, what kind of modifications allowed etc. its a whole weekend of studying if your serious about it. in general the two cars to have in autocross with the current classing setup, is a vette, or a miata.

Miata
Is
Always
The
Answer

i can't even imagine the budget required to run a spec944 compared to a spec miata ... its got to be at least double or triple, and your going no faster, and you have even shorter/smaller fields of cars.

[Cory M]

I don't know where you are buying your parts but 944 wheel bearings are not $400... fronts are $10-20 and rears are $50-100. The bearings aren't failure prone so it doesn't really matter anyway. Steel front control arms are about $25. As far as Porsches go they are dirt cheap. If you blow an engine or clutch it's a bigger deal but I wouldn't say the cost to campaign a 944spec is significantly higher than a Miata and they are DIY friendly. I built and ran a 944spec on a shoe-string, used tire, budget and was competitive. In reality, the competition level for a Miata is significantly higher than 944spec due to the fact that it's a much more popular series. Unlike the 944, you aren't going to win in a Miata unless your car and driver are fully optimized. All of those little things add up...

Unless you are RACING in a field of similarly prepared cars, your modded E30 will be faster and more fun than either a Miata or 944. There is a lot of aftermarket support for the E30 and you can keep it street legal.

[2mAn]

Yea right now, the clear winner is the E30. Just need to get more seat time and get to the track. Looks like my Recaro SE seats will be sold here and I can replace them with a proper fixed back seat and 5 pt harness. That should be a good start, along with the Dunlops. Then from there it will be little things and more seat time.

Thanks everyone.