HELP! Should I buy a Cayenne?

[Roger 911]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

So why does a body on frame truck appeal to you more?

I used to tow my 911 on a trailer with a 2000 Range Rover 4.6, which was a body on frame truck. The first thing I noticed when I towed the trailer with the Q7 was the amount of noise and vibration that was transmitted through the unibody from the hitch. The hitch is essentially attached to the same structure that your seats are attached to. With a body on frame, the body is isolated from the frame with various types of rubber or fluid filled insulators. This makes for a quieter, smoother tow. It's not that big of a deal, and once your moving at speed it is minimal. However, if you were towing everyday, or several times a week, this might be bothersome.

About the only other advantage that some of the large body on frame trucks would have in towing is a longer wheelbase. I think there is a practical limit to how large/long you can make a unibody chassis. Conversely, you can make a very long ladder frame.

In the real world, people have to compromise. Most of us can't justify (or afford) a dedicated vehicle for each task. In addition, those of us with "significant others" wind up compromising even further. In our household, the Q7 is my wife's everyday car. She loves it, it hauls everyone and everything that we have, it tows fine (the handful of times each year that I tow), and you don't see one at every stop light.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Roger 911

I used to tow my 911 on a trailer with a 2000 Range Rover 4.6, which was a body on frame truck. The first thing I noticed when I towed the trailer with the Q7 was the amount of noise and vibration that was transmitted through the unibody from the hitch. The hitch is essentially attached to the same structure that your seats are attached to. With a body on frame, the body is isolated from the frame with various types of rubber or fluid filled insulators. This makes for a quieter, smoother tow. It's not that big of a deal, and once your moving at speed it is minimal. However, if you were towing everyday, or several times a week, this might be bothersome.

About the only other advantage that some of the large body on frame trucks would have in towing is a longer wheelbase. I think there is a practical limit to how large/long you can make a unibody chassis. Conversely, you can make a very long ladder frame.

In the real world, people have to compromise. Most of us can't justify (or afford) a dedicated vehicle for each task. In addition, those of us with "significant others" wind up compromising even further. In our household, the Q7 is my wife's everyday car. She loves it, it hauls everyone and everything that we have, it tows fine (the handful of times each year that I tow), and you don't see one at every stop light.

To be honest I never noticed any additional noise but that is interesting. I will listen closely next time I use it to tow. I also would not use the Cayenne to tow anything longer than 18 ft or heavier than 5000 pounds. I use a 16ft Trailex trailer and in total I am towing 4000 pounds +/-. There are a dozen or so people in our local PCA region that use their cayenne to tow and they all swear by it.

Actually my wife and I share everything. We even share our track car. The Cayenne is her car of choice. She does not need a DD so if she is going out she has first dibs on it as I have the Avalanche or any of the other cars if I need them. She will not drive the turbo as it scares her and I am fine with that. I also find that with the way it has gotten around the NYC area I barely feel comfortable in a sedan and if i were to drive one it better respond like a Porsche. You need to be defensive aggressive around here otherwise the cell phone junkie will run you off the road. I find having an SUV type vehicle works better as I can see better and people seem to notice you more making you less likely to be hit.

Worked a long time to get here. Many hard hours and painfully long weekends over the past 25 years. To me if I don't treat myself now I might not ever have the chance to enjoy the better things. I do my research carefully before I buy anything and only if I get a deal on it. The CT is not cheap although I got it at a great price and IMO I think it was worth every penny. Can't say that about my last Dodge or BMW.

thanks for the heads up on the noise i will listen for it.

[Tobra]

A body on frame truck is superior for towing for a lot of reasons. A good quality sedan is better for hauling people than an SUV for a lot of reasons. Life is indeed all about compromises. I am happy for you Mr Cobalt, your satisfaction with your Cayenne is evident.

I have driven a Cayenne, not a bad vehicle, but there is nothing you could say that would convince me that purchasing one would be a good idea. This is not to say that a VW based Porsche is not of any interest to me, I have a 914 after all, but if I am going to drive a VW with a Porsche drivetrain, that guy with the type 34 Karmann with a 911 motor is rolling in something much more appealing to me.

[GSpreeman]

Have to chime in. I looked at the Cayenne but, rationalized that since they skipped a year, there were probably enough defects to warrant pulling it. Then, with the new one coming out, the 2008, if they made that many modifications you are once again buying a beta test.

I went for the Lexus GX470. Fast enough to get me there. Every option that I would want, (also, I was going though the options on the Cayenne and it really looks like the Porsche folks likes to nickel and dime it's customers). Conversely, my GX came loaded as a their standard. The only options were GPS, Sound System, and Towing package. Everything else was already included.

[Cobalt]

Sorry guys this entire thread is just loosing me. All I hear is opinions without facts or proof. I have presented my first hand experiences with over 25 years of driving and owning Porsche's and performance cars. I have made side by side comparisons with thousands of miles to evaluate them and yet a simple drive seems to be enough to negate what I have presented.

It is easy to say a body on frame is better but what facts are you using to back it up. I use both my vehicles to tow and have towed 4000 miles in the past 2 months alone. Will be towing another 1200 miles this weekend, yet I find my CT to do a superior job to my body on frame Chevy or body on frame Dodge. Yet somehow all this experience is wrong based on your responses being backed up by what proof?

I would love to let you try both I am 100% confident after trying both you would agree the CT does a superior job.

Just for the record I have also owned numerous sedans both foreign and domestic and the only sedan I felt did a better job was my BMW 740IL and that was only because it was like a limo in the back. It handled like crap in comparison but was a nice smooth ride. Even for so much room it really only held 4 people comfortably as where the CT fits 5 more easily with less leg room of course.

GSpreeman,

The reason why Porsche never produced 07''s was because they increased production each year until they built up a surplus of 06's. They decided to sell off the 06's before introducing the 08 changes. Other than some slight displacement increase and Direct fuel injection the changes were purely cosmetic. For the record some of the issues I hear about the Beta year Cayenne's are similar issues all the major manufacturer's are having problems with yet for some reason when Porsche had minor issues it was unacceptable.

Not to knock the Lexus although my neighbor has one and he calls it his land yacht. He jokes because he says it is all luxury and nothing else. He is already planning his next purchase because he feels it is such a bore to drive. I actually started feeling nauseous in the back seat as the ride gave me motion sickness from all the sashaying back and forth. I could never own a vehicle like that sorry. It reminded me of my B-in-laws Range Rover which I would take over it. Sorry I am not trying to be insulting but if you guys call yourselves performance guys with interest in sports cars I don't see how cars like these could interest you but that is just me i guess.

Lastly regarding VW's. I restored my 74 914 2.0l. Fun little toy. Underpowered though. I spent 3 years restoring every inch from Engine and tranny rebuild to cosmetic restoration. I sold the car a few years back and it recently sold again for $14,500. One thing I learned during the restoration was how to identify VW influence on a Porsche design. It was clearly evident when VW got involved and cut corners.

I am not telling you to go out and buy a Cayenne although anyone reading this will hopefully pick up on the facts and overlook the conjecture.

Cheers.

[Roger 911]

Originally Posted by GSpreeman

(also, I was going though the options on the Cayenne and it really looks like the Porsche folks likes to nickel and dime it's customers). Conversely, my GX came loaded as a their standard. The only options were GPS, Sound System, and Towing package. Everything else was already included.

You aren't kidding! I optioned up a base Cayenne to match up with the Q7 that we got and I think the Cayenne was about $14-15K more, and of course it still doesn't have a 3rd row seat.

I think the biggest advantage of the GX is the quality. Audi's quality ratings are always better than big brother VW, but they don't come close to Toyota/Lexus. We had to bring the Q7 in after a couple of months for a recall which required engine removal. In comparison, my Dad's 4Runner (poor man's GX) hasn't required a thing in almost two years.

I guess it depends on your frame of reference. We replaced a Range Rover with the Q7. So we had a very, very low starting point in terms of quality. I was pretty confident that nothing could have worse quality than a Land Rover.

[Tobra]

Anthony, no offense, but every single thing you have put forward regarding the towing capabilities of your Cayenne is opinion. If I am buying a car as a tow vehicle, that is my primary concern, not how fast is it or how well does it corner.

With respect to towing. My father-in-law has a crew cab GMC with the Izuzu turbo diesel V-8. It is superior in every way to a Cayenne as a tow vehicle, that is a fact, not opinion. It seats 6, and has a long bed to stick spare parts, tires and wheels. It won't run a 12 second quarter, or a sub 9 minute lap at the ring, but it will run mid to low 16's unladen, high 16's or low 17's towing your Cayenne.

If you would like proof, I suggest you go drive one. If your prior experince with a 914 made you dubious about the impact of VW on Porsche design and visa versa, why would you consider a Cayenne in the first place, despite how fond of it you have proven to be?

[cairns]

Cobalt you're certainly a vociferous defender of all things Cayenne- I think Porsche should be paying you.

As to the facts regarding body on frame (BOF) vs. monocoque (or unibody):

Advantages
Easier to design, build and modify (less of an issue now that CAD is commonplace), but still an advantage for coachbuilt vehicles.
More suited for heavy duty usage and can be more durable.
Easier to repair after accidents.
Overall better ride quality for SUVs (the chassis can be isolated from the body)

Disadvantages
Heavier than unibody - lower performance and/or higher fuel consumption.
Center of gravity is usually higher - compromising stability and handling.
Relatively poor handling (less resistant to torsion- flexing of the whole car in corners)
No crumple zone - higher rate of death and serious injury.

A BOF design is far superior to a unibody design when it comes to towing for two reasons- it is much stronger and can be made to be that strong for far less money. The Cayenne, X5 and other unibody SUVs will tow very well up to a specified limit- usually no more than 6 or 7 thousand pounds. But if you want to tow something that weighs more you will have to purchase a BOF vehicle- period. There's a reason semi trailers aren't unibodies- and there's also a reason you'll see your mates at the Porsche club pulling their covered trailers with Fords, Chevys, RRs etc. Making a unibody that strong would neutralize the weight advantage and cost a lot more.

You should also note that VW essentially designed the Cayenne- many of the parts are identical- so I think you're arguing against yourself when you say VW cuts corners. My first Porsche was a 944S2- the glovebox, for example, constantly broke (a Porsche part). The window motors, switches door handles etc. never broke- and those were all VW parts.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Anthony, no offense, but every single thing you have put forward regarding the towing capabilities of your Cayenne is opinion. If I am buying a car as a tow vehicle, that is my primary concern, not how fast is it or how well does it corner.

With respect to towing. My father-in-law has a crew cab GMC with the Izuzu turbo diesel V-8. It is superior in every way to a Cayenne as a tow vehicle, that is a fact, not opinion. It seats 6, and has a long bed to stick spare parts, tires and wheels. It won't run a 12 second quarter, or a sub 9 minute lap at the ring, but it will run mid to low 16's unladen, high 16's or low 17's towing your Cayenne.

If you would like proof, I suggest you go drive one. If your prior experince with a 914 made you dubious about the impact of VW on Porsche design and visa versa, why would you consider a Cayenne in the first place, despite how fond of it you have proven to be?

Well obviously we are in two different threads here.

The question was asked "should one (I) buy a Cayenne". I expressed its merits vs negative opinions posted by others on unfounded conjecture. I defended the cayenne because it deserves better than the BS being flung at it. Now we arguing what is the best tow vehicle. LOL this is like kids playing telephone.

I pointed out how it is capable of many things including but not limited to, handling, accelerating, towing, comfort etc,etc. It is a very capable all around vehicle that can hold its own on many different playing fields. Is there an argument here that can prove this statement is not so?


The VW joint venture had to do with the construction of the body, which Porsche had much more input than the insignificant roll you would have us believe. The drivetrain has been mistakingly confused with the VW counterpart which has no similarities (except in the 6 which is not being discussed here). The suspensions are tuned differently and one cannot be mistaken for the other.

Originally Posted by cairns

Cobalt you're certainly a vociferous defender of all things Cayenne- I think Porsche should be paying you.

As to the facts regarding body on frame (BOF) vs. monocoque (or unibody):

Advantages
Easier to design, build and modify (less of an issue now that CAD is commonplace), but still an advantage for coachbuilt vehicles.
More suited for heavy duty usage and can be more durable.
Easier to repair after accidents.
Overall better ride quality for SUVs (the chassis can be isolated from the body)

Disadvantages
Heavier than unibody - lower performance and/or higher fuel consumption.
Center of gravity is usually higher - compromising stability and handling.
Relatively poor handling (less resistant to torsion- flexing of the whole car in corners)
No crumple zone - higher rate of death and serious injury.

A BOF design is far superior to a unibody design when it comes to towing for two reasons- it is much stronger and can be made to be that strong for far less money. The Cayenne, X5 and other unibody SUVs will tow very well up to a specified limit- usually no more than 6 or 7 thousand pounds. But if you want to tow something that weighs more you will have to purchase a BOF vehicle- period. There's a reason semi trailers aren't unibodies- and there's also a reason you'll see your mates at the Porsche club pulling their covered trailers with Fords, Chevys, RRs etc. Making a unibody that strong would neutralize the weight advantage and cost a lot more.

You should also note that VW essentially designed the Cayenne- many of the parts are identical- so I think you're arguing against yourself when you say VW cuts corners. My first Porsche was a 944S2- the glovebox, for example, constantly broke (a Porsche part). The window motors, switches door handles etc. never broke- and those were all VW parts.

Maybe they should but I am not defending the Cayenne for any other reason than it is a great vehicle and is getting a bad rap here.

I am not so sure anyone has been reading what I wrote. To begin with as I stated a good % of the people coming to events have been towing with their cayenne's. Yes when a 2 car trailer is used and a super duty truck is needed yes the Cayenne is not even in the equation. It is not a purpose built tow vehicle. Never said it was. I did say when it comes to towing my 964 C2 too and from the track the Cayenne does a superior job compared to my Chevy or Dodge. It will accelerate stronger (faster) brakes better and is amazingly stable. Not to mention gets 15 mpg doing it vs my Chevy at 10.5 mpg.

I owned a 944S2 fun car nicely balanced a little under powered though. I believe if you do your research. The engine and suspension on the 944's were Porsche the Body and components were contracted by Porsche and built by Audi/VW. It was not until the 968 that Porsche built the car itself.

I can't understand why everyone has a need to dissect the Cayenne and toss it aside like it had leprosy. It is a great vehicle take my word for it or not. Is it like my other Porsche's? yes but less intense. I do enjoy driving it like my other Porsche's and I get almost the same thrill doing so when I am not on some boring highway.

Don't care if anyone goes out to buy one but see no need to bash it either.

[Tobra]

I am not bashing anything Anthony, and I don't think anyone else is either. You shared your experiences and opinions as did others. You mentioned how you thought it was a superioor tow vehicle, that is what got the discussion turned to towing.

I started reading this thread not so much because I was interested in one, more that I was curious why anyone would want one. You are quite clear in why you like it so much, how well it suits your purposes, but I buy cars for me, not you, consequently your arguments are not persuasive at all to me. Personally, I do not care for big heavy vehicles as daily drivers, but that is my own preference.

I am not implying anything about how much is VW or how much is Porsche when I ask why you would look at a VW/Porsche joint venture, given what you said about previous vehicles made under these auspices. I was just replying to an incongruity in what you were saying.

[cairns]

I think it's the Hillary Clinton of SUVs- a polarizing vehicle. We looked at the 2008 models and decided to buy another X5 instead. IMO far better value for the $. The car is $70K out the door and a similarly equipped S would be over 80- and I still wouldn't have bluetooth, USB ports etc.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I am not bashing anything Anthony, and I don't think anyone else is either. You shared your experiences and opinions as did others. You mentioned how you thought it was a superioor tow vehicle, that is what got the discussion turned to towing.

I started reading this thread not so much because I was interested in one, more that I was curious why anyone would want one. You are quite clear in why you like it so much, how well it suits your purposes, but I buy cars for me, not you, consequently your arguments are not persuasive at all to me. Personally, I do not care for big heavy vehicles as daily drivers, but that is my own preference.

I am not implying anything about how much is VW or how much is Porsche when I ask why you would look at a VW/Porsche joint venture, given what you said about previous vehicles made under these auspices. I was just replying to an incongruity in what you were saying.

I stand corrected. I confused some other fact less negative comments (there are a number) for yours and I should have reread your comments prior to responding to you. My apologies. I guess I have become desensitized due to so much needles Cayenne bashing based on peoples dislikes of the concept without giving the vehicle a fair shake.

I did however clarify that if a sports car is what you want a sports car is what you should buy. My comments are for those interested in the Cayenne as an alternative vehicle and comparing it to most other SUV's does it a major disservice.

I will admit I too hated the concept of the Cayenne when it first came out but after driving one for several years it keeps impressing me more than any other vehicle of its type.

I do still prefer it for towing my track car over the others though and am grateful to have it when the seasons aren't right for driving my other cars.

[Sweeny Todd]

Originally Posted by Want to be

I guess you know more than a Master Mechanic who has worked on VW's for over 20 years.

Regarding the 07 models, he had heard Porsche might have figured out their issues. He said the 06 model were doing better, but VW was not improving!

The transmission issue, i guess they fixed the problem by selling Front wheel drive cars instead of 4 wheel drive.

I like the Cayenne, but i am concerned about if it will break down.

Recently a gentleman told us @ the shop, he traded his Porsche Cayenne on a Ford 150, because his Cayenne had too many problems.

Many of the newer Porsches are not holding there values, because of their reliabilities problems.

Porsche from 993 down are holding their values, but 996 and up $$ values are dropping like flies.

I wish you good luck on your Twin Turbo!

Oh yeah, Porsche invited me to drive a new Cayenne from the Cellular Movie promo. I drove a V8 model S, and later seen the Cellular movie as-well. Loved the Cayenne, the movie was so so!

jpc

Can I ask a question here? Why is it that mechanics that have 20 years of experience working on something are so friggin' opinionated?

Who gives a crap what he has to say. What's his sample size - 2 or 3? 4 maybe? Just because he doesn't like it, what difference does that make? What's the actual real maintenance record for the vehicle? That's what I care about. NOT the isolated opinion of some old fart mechanic that doesn't like change.

How many times have we hear old mechanics with 20 years experience say they don't like fuel injection? Or ABS brakes, or stability management. Because it's harder to work on than points and distributors and sticking a bigger accelerator pump in a Holley double pumper.

Sheesh. Get over yourself.

[Sweeny Todd]

Originally Posted by Tobra

A body on frame truck is superior for towing for a lot of reasons. A good quality sedan is better for hauling people than an SUV for a lot of reasons. Life is indeed all about compromises. I am happy for you Mr Cobalt, your satisfaction with your Cayenne is evident.

I have driven a Cayenne, not a bad vehicle, but there is nothing you could say that would convince me that purchasing one would be a good idea. This is not to say that a VW based Porsche is not of any interest to me, I have a 914 after all, but if I am going to drive a VW with a Porsche drivetrain, that guy with the type 34 Karmann with a 911 motor is rolling in something much more appealing to me.

Everything I've read says it's a Porsche based VW. Not the other way around. Also, if memory serves, this is the first year the Porsche has cost more than the VW. That's right. The VW was the expensive one, the Porsche was the cheap one.

You need to update your paradigms. Porsche now owns VW not the other way around. This is not 1984.

H

[cairns]

...mmm you might want to belay that statement. Porsche owns 31% of VW. Their voting rights equal no more than 20% per German law.

And why wouldn't mechanics be entitled to their opinion just like everyone else? My nephew has two years as a VW mechanic. He's twenty three- hardly an "old fart".
He also says don't buy a Toureag- that they are trouble prone hanger queens. Their service records are all over the internet- and are pretty poor.

[Want to be]

Most people can't believe Porsche's would have problems, but they DO!

I trully believe Porsche has lost its MAIN roots. The core people who designed Porsche, many years back are gone! Today, Porsche and several other manufacturers have lost their core competency level.

Why would Porsche need an American company to fix their racing cars! Can you say, outsourcing! Porsche could not keep their Spyder Porsche engines from blowing up until some well known INDY car and Nascar man came along. Can you say Penske Racing!

Has anybody noticed new Porsche have alot of HORSEPOWER, but NO torque. Can you see the issue here! Racing is torque not horses!

Heck, Motor and Track could not explain why a specific Porsche was slower from 40-70 mph vs another sports car. Can you SAY TORQUE.

Back to the Toureg, The mechanic is a master mechanic with a broad experience with both styles of cars. (porsche and Vw)

Yes the older cars are easier to work on and they don't need 10 thousand dollar special equipment, but i have never heard either of my mechanics complain about fuel injection.

Actually, if you want to know the truth, there is only a few mechanics left who actually know how to work on th e older Porsche.

The newer mechanics get stuck when they can't find the input connection to find out what wrong with the car!

Matter fact, my mechanic said he has heard enough grief from the West and East coast mechanic on the newer Porsche.

Have you ever looked @ the classified in California for used Porsche. WOw wee, lets see, new engine , replaced by Porsche....New engine, replaced by Porsche. I would be scared once the warranty is GONE!

When a new Touregs drive off the tractor trailer truck, and Blow up, there is a PROBLEM!

Touregs, with software upgrades nearly every month, tell me they don't know what the are doing. The Master Mechanic said the 2004 VW had a stack of recalls, mostly software changes and 4 wheel drive issues.

VW fixed 4wd problem by selling fWD instead, HA!

I hope Porsche and VW both get their bugs figured out! Again, don't take my word for it. By a new Toureg or Cayenne, but when its time to trade her in. The old dealer will know about the issue with these cars and trucks.

Enjoy the Porsche until the warranty is gone! "Audi is in the same boat as well!"

ttfn

Good luck

jpc

[Sweeny Todd]

Originally Posted by cairns

...mmm you might want to belay that statement. Porsche owns 31% of VW. Their voting rights equal no more than 20% per German law.

And why wouldn't mechanics be entitled to their opinion just like everyone else? My nephew has two years as a VW mechanic. He's twenty three- hardly an "old fart".
He also says don't buy a Toureag- that they are trouble prone hanger queens. Their service records are all over the internet- and are pretty poor.

OK. First, let me just say that opinions are fine. However, I believe that most people attach a lot of weight to mechanics particularly when they say something is bad. Hence, it becomes very important to put it in context.

In science and marketing they have a saying: Observation is not correlation.

Let's illustrate this principle with a very simple wildly exaggerated example. Let's say VW builds 100,000 cars. 1% of them have a particular problem. Now let's say that all 1,000 of the cars with problems are shipped to the dealers in Houston. What do you think the opinions of Houston mechanics would be?

So if we were to design a study to determine what mechanics thought of Touregs, we'd have to have a sample of mechanics across all US cities.

So there we are. Random opinions don't really count. They're too subject to individual experiences. Personally, I can't stand lawyers. But that's because all of them I've ever met are jerks. I bet there are a bunch of lawyers out there, though, that aren't. I just haven't met any of them.

See?

Also, I just read that Porsche and Dr. WW are applying pressure to the German government to get that rule changed. If they do, they'll have controlling interest. Slightly premature, yes, but imminent, I think.

They also said they wanted VW to be more competitive with Toyota in the US.

I'm thinking about buying a Cayenne. What I'd like to see is an owners survey. Has anyone seen one of those? That's a much better source than mechanics.


H

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by cairns

..

And why wouldn't mechanics be entitled to their opinion just like everyone else? My nephew has two years as a VW mechanic. He's twenty three- hardly an "old fart".
He also says don't buy a Toureag- that they are trouble prone hanger queens. Their service records are all over the internet- and are pretty poor.

Sorry to say but 2 years as a VW mechanic makes him green in my book. I am sure he is talented and knows what he was taught but new mechanics are computer bound and have little knowledge of old school mechanics. I can point out 20 hard core old school mechanics by me that would give the Cayenne nothing less than a big Thumbs up. This include our local Protomotive guys. Just came back from VIR and was talking to one of the head mechanics from Synergy racing and he loves the Cayenne.

Originally Posted by Want to be

Most people can't believe Porsche's would have problems, but they DO!

Say what? Porsche's have always had some issues or another. Although only recently have those problems become major with the RMS problems of the 996 and detonating engines of the boxster. These are issues with the 996 based engine and have no bearing on the Cayenne.

Originally Posted by Want to be

I trully believe Porsche has lost its MAIN roots. The core people who designed Porsche, many years back are gone! Today, Porsche and several other manufacturers have lost their core competency level.

Have you driven a 997GT3 or RS how about a new turbo? I can't believe what I have been reading in this thread.

Originally Posted by Want to be

Why would Porsche need an American company to fix their racing cars! Can you say, outsourcing! Porsche could not keep their Spyder Porsche engines from blowing up until some well known INDY car and Nascar man came along. Can you say Penske Racing!

Simple answer $$$$. It is less costly to outsource. Do you recall companies like Andial and Holbert racing. Same exact thing you seem to have missed something over the years. These companies along with Penske (can you say IROC 74 RS series) were around since the late 60's and served the same roll in Porsche's US based racing programs. Get your facts straight.

Originally Posted by Want to be

Has anybody noticed new Porsche have alot of HORSEPOWER, but NO torque. Can you see the issue here! Racing is torque not horses!

Heck, Motor and Track could not explain why a specific Porsche was slower from 40-70 mph vs another sports car. Can you SAY TORQUE.

The fact that Porsche is generating 400+ hp out of a N/A 3.6l engine isn't anything less than amazing and you don't seem to get it. Had a C6 Z06 with mods at VIR this weekend and it was not much faster than a GT3. This is also the reason why they have classes in racing.

Besides get your facts straight on HP and torque. They are both important and how they work together is a major factor.

Originally Posted by Want to be

Back to the Toureg, The mechanic is a master mechanic with a broad experience with both styles of cars. (porsche and Vw)

Yes the older cars are easier to work on and they don't need 10 thousand dollar special equipment, but i have never heard either of my mechanics complain about fuel injection.

Actually, if you want to know the truth, there is only a few mechanics left who actually know how to work on th e older Porsche.

The newer mechanics get stuck when they can't find the input connection to find out what wrong with the car!

Matter fact, my mechanic said he has heard enough grief from the West and East coast mechanic on the newer Porsche.

Have you ever looked @ the classified in California for used Porsche. WOw wee, lets see, new engine , replaced by Porsche....New engine, replaced by Porsche. I would be scared once the warranty is GONE!

When a new Touregs drive off the tractor trailer truck, and Blow up, there is a PROBLEM!

Touregs, with software upgrades nearly every month, tell me they don't know what the are doing. The Master Mechanic said the 2004 VW had a stack of recalls, mostly software changes and 4 wheel drive issues.

VW fixed 4wd problem by selling fWD instead, HA!

I hope Porsche and VW both get their bugs figured out! Again, don't take my word for it. By a new Toureg or Cayenne, but when its time to trade her in. The old dealer will know about the issue with these cars and trucks.

Enjoy the Porsche until the warranty is gone! "Audi is in the same boat as well!"

ttfn

Good luck

jpc

Although I agree with some of what you are saying the rest couldn't further off base. Opinions are fine so long as they are based on some facts.

Why are we still grouping VW and Porsche in the same sentences. What relates to one has nothing to do with the other. If you think they do you are sadly mistaken. Porsche has had issues with the 996's and far less with the 997's. This does not extend to the GT3's, GT2's and turbos'. These were new cars produced on a larger scale than any model previously and it covers more cars because more were produced and more parts were outsourced.

So what does any of this have to do with buying a Cayenne?

[Want to be]

Have i personally driven the high end cars, NO!

But, Mr. Farmer has seen a few examples of the new product line from Porsche. "Racing cars prep'd and standard dailys"

Farmers complaint, the new Porsche do not have any torque.

Do i believe a meachinc with over 30 years experience in racing?, Yes

Just last week, a stage one engine, single turbo destroyed a 993 twin turbo with less than 15k miles one her. (Quarter mile test) , engine built @ Farmers

He has test driven a few of the newer high dollars Porsches @ the track, and was not impressed. Several of his clients have complained about their cars costing over $100k from Porsche, but could not compete against his.

Most PCA drivers are leaning toward OEM race cars instead of the old version built by side mechanics.

You could say, Bob is complaining about losing some business towards Porsche sales of racing cars.

I can not recall him saying any of these Newer HIGH dollar Porsches leading any Porsche events in the Midwest or outside.

Due to the lack of competion in PCA racing, some of his cars are racing in other events accross the US.

My apologizes on getting off the main thread intentions of providing help with new Cayenne users.

Good luck everyone with their new or used purchase of a Cayenne.

It appears my thoughts are either wrong or correct. You can decide.

Yes, Porsche has had their issues in the past! I can not tell you how many times i had been told by Farmer how Porsche could have spent few more bucks to fix some of their major issues on all the cars.

It took Bob Farmer in the late 70's to tell Porsche, @ a OEM dealership, while working as the Master Mechanic, they needed to fix their timing chain issues. Porsche is blind @ times of their issues.

Example, they just could not understand why people were complain about the 924 realiablity. Bob told them, point blank. People do not want to buy a POS.

Thanks jpc

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Want to be

Just last week, a stage one engine, single turbo destroyed a 993 twin turbo with less than 15k miles one her. (Quarter mile test) , engine built @ Farmers

Example, they just could not understand why people were complain about the 924 realiablity. Bob told them, point blank. People do not want to buy a POS.

Thanks jpc

Wow, now we are getting into the 924's. These cars used the engines from the Audi 100LS. The worlds most unreliable engine. I worked on one for years.

I think we are talking apples and oranges about the rest. Drive a 997 GT3 RS and tell me what you think? I have and it is nothing less than amazing. We had a GT3 RS and a worked Z06 going at it this weekend and they were damn close and the RS has a lot less torque than the Z06. Both,skilled drivers. I guess the GT2 or turbo has no torque either?


BTW my 964 turbo 3.6 with only minor mods (stage 1) blows away stock 993TT's, 996TT's and 997TT's so what comparison is that. They built these cars for the general public and not for racing. It is the customers that they were trying to please and the cars command a premium today.

You might be taking Mr. Farmers words to literally. Is the GT3 such a bad car. Why don't you tell the guys down at Synergy that they don't deserve all the trophies on their walls.