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considering an LS swap in a 911

I have been working on my 78 911 SC/930 conversion for 6 yrs. during that time I have also done a LOT of work on several other Porsches......

I have a thread on the 930 forum of this journey.

well I have been interacting with someone also doing a lot of work on a 911 that is an LS/SB conversion, this is his second.

I am in the final phase of preping the body for some welding and then paint.

I have the 3.3 engine, but had completely disassembled for rebuild. a number of parts have been at a shop for a while to have rebuilt/machine work done.

the more I research an LS swap the more I am being drawn to that....

so, anyone do a SB/LS swap on a 911 and regret it? Love it?

I have read a number of threads on this forum and dont recall seeing an 'I wish I had never done this...." post.



of course on the 930 forum when I posted this I was told to put down the pipe....


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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-23-2020, 06:47 AM
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LS

I just swapped a Ford Crate engine (Ford to Ford) but my point is 10k delivered from Ford Performance with a 24mo two year warranty.

Same time last year I had my 3.2 Carrera engine rebuilt for 20k. Bottom up. I could have spent 25k easily. All stock.

Since your car is not stock and not a collector you are free to do anything that you like. The LS swap make sense.

More power, less money and unique sounds like a winner to me.
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Old 02-23-2020, 06:52 AM
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and I have to admit I am a bit intimidated by the idea of correctly building my motor. not just the assembly process but the main issue is the challenge of tuning the CIS.

I was told I can get a LS3 crate motor for just under $10k, and about another $5k for the rest of the stuff to complete.

if I go LS would just take all the engine stuff and box it up and sell. it's all there along with a new set of P&Cs.

now for the line in my thread on the 930 forum, here is the link to that:
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/847975-930-clone-restore-if-you-had-do-all-over.html


if you had it to do all over, what would you do differently....
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-23-2020, 10:05 AM
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Nike says "Just do it"
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Old 02-23-2020, 04:10 PM
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So an LS is lighter, stronger, more powerful, more fuel efficient, less complex, extremely less expensive... other then fanbboi'ism there are no strong arguments against it.
Old 02-26-2020, 06:36 AM
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I'd be interesting in buying the motor. Even if it's still disassembled.
Old 02-27-2020, 03:41 AM
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It all depends on what youíre looking for. For power, there is no question that the LS is the way to go. None.

From an engineering standpoint, the LS is superior in every measurable way to the Porsche -6. Weight wise, once you factor in water, its maybe 50 lbs more than the -6.

Ultimate power however isnít always the design goal.

For my 1976 912 build, I wanted

* Period correct early 70s look and feel
* Looked factory plausible
* stock looking trunk
* lightweight, had to be 912 weight
* reasonable power, ~200 hp
* simple and reliable for long trips
* easy availability of parts
* full use of trunk with spare tire.

So I decided on a performance build N/A Subaru 2.5 with Ďstealthí radiator setup in the fenders.

The Subaru fit my design goals best because itís a very light, small and compact motor. Mostly it has much lower cooling requirements than the LS. You only need a pair of smaller radiators hidden in the front fenders.



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Old 02-27-2020, 04:11 AM
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mikedsilva,
wonder what the shipping cost would be to Australia.

it is for sale. here is a link to my thread on the 930 forum. would need to look through it for info/pics on the engine. and all the yellow/red/blue PC has been removed.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/847975-930-clone-restore-if-you-had-do-all-over.html

I disassembled to the case. had planned to have Steve Weiner split the case and rebuild the bottom end. old P&Cs were at / beyond wear limits, and got a set of used P&C from a local Porsche master mechanic taken from a 930 at 24k miles to do 3.5 upgrade. all the measurements were like new tolerances.

and I have cleaned/painted/powder coated a number of parts and had Shaun at Tru6 cerakote the fan and housing, along with replating a bunch of stuff.

if really interested PM me. I will be going through everything, inventory, take pics, and box up as time allows. and then post for sale.

picking up the cyl head for my 951 today...
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-27-2020, 04:56 AM
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Andy,
agree. I started the project not worrying about how stock or original it was. it was already a frankenstien. wanted the look and feel of a modified 930 in a somewhat raw state and track capable. if I had done the 3.3 my expectation was 400hp, so a 430hp LS3 is the plan. not really interested in max HP. and hoping the car will be <2500lb wet when done.

I had a long discussion with Renegade Hybrid yesterday. my current thinking, thanks to Steve Wiener, to put 3 radiators in the front behind a 934 valance all with fans. Valance but not the 934 extended flares. my car is a slant nose so not much room under the headlight, but there is space behind the 934 valance. they do not know of a customer who did this but they expect I could get enough cooling this way. it was a surprise some time ago when I learned the 934 was oil/water cooled. I told RH I did not want to go their route of turning most of the frunk into a radiator and housing, and keep stock gas tank, etc. As I was planning for a big oil cooler in the front, cut out the front of the frunk to weld in an RSR deflector panel for the oil cooler. it still needs to be welded in place. and per Steve, the 934 valance has a lot of room on both corners for smaller radiator that would just vent to the wheel wells. and if this is not enough cooling for track/DE could add a small radiator under the whale tail. the guy I am interracting with put the radiator in the tail under the whale tail with fans. so far works fine for him.

still a lot of analysis and decisions to make but moving ahead with this plan.



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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-27-2020, 05:20 AM
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Looks like a great project.

Lots of folks have had good experience with the RH radiator, but that setup is just not for me. I absolutely must have a stock looking, fully function trunk. I'm building a daily driver / weekend autocross / long road trip car, need a trunk.

In your case, if you're going for an LS, you can still keep the trunk. Take a look at Reece's build here. He's using a stock Jeep Cherokee radiator tucked behind a 993 cover, and all he did was cut a RSR style duct. I've chatted which him quite a bit, he's daily driving it now, and cools perfectly.

New Project 76 with 993 GT2 Widebody,LS1,Subaru Box,996 Brakes

Only issue for me, is that setup won't clear an impact bar. Since I'm building a daily, I need to keep impact protection.

I'm a research engineer (engineering physics) for my day job, and I've done a lot of calculations on cooling requirements. I've also put together a big list of radiator options and so forth.

I've calculated that with my setup, I'll need about 200 square inches of radiator area up front. Assuming there's good ducting. Ducting is absolutely critical. I've done some air-flow models and determined where's the areas of the most pressure drop.

What I'm doing with mine, is I'm fitting a pair of Austin Mini radiators just under the headlights, very similar to how the 964 mounts it's radiators. For good measure, I'm also fitting a center intercooler radiator, so that should yield about 300 square inches. Should be way more than enough.

As for radiators in series vs. parallel. That's a complicated question, lots of physics there. On one hand, water pump volume is inversely proportional to pressure head. Pressure head is proportional to length of radiators. So, parallel yields much more flow. However, higher water velocity means way higher Reynolds number, which means greater thermal flow of heat from water to surrounding radiator. See, it's really complicated. I don't have enough hard data to create a good mathematical model, so at this point, going to have to try both ways and see which one is better.

Water pipe wise, in my case, I worked out that a 1.1" ID is fine, on an LS, with greater volume, you'd want to probably go with 1.25 ID.

I put tougher a photoshop of the style I'm going for. Yes, I'm totally ripping off Magnus Walker, but going for a more period correct look. I'd really like to do a full backdate, but sadly I don't have $10,000 for the steel parts. I'm going to make some cast aluminum grills, same style as the Karman Ghia to fit in the 964 fog lights, and these will be radiator air inlets. Will also duct lower inlet to radiators. Think I'll probably go with carbs also, I like the look.

I also put together a spreadsheet of different engine options. I thought long and hard about a performance VW T4 build, both N/A and turbo. That would have cost about double that of a Subaru. And in the end, if anything blows on the engine like a case, or other internals, I'd be at the mercy of ebay parts vultures, just waiting for someone gullible or desperate to pay their extortion prices. A N/A 2.7 swap and build would have been well over $20,000. Makes no sense for a 76 912 that's not even worth $25,000 in perfect shape. Weird thing is that flat-6 swapped 912 seem to be worth less than stock 912. So, why spend double what the car's worth on an engine to make the car worth less.

I've got a build blog / page here:

https://facebook.com/ArrowBlau

I've put together some spreadsheets and info on radiator sizes, shoot me a PM, and I can share them.




Old 02-27-2020, 07:40 AM
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thanks for the link. took a quick look and that is a BIG radiator.
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-27-2020, 11:33 AM
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ironically it looks like he has done what I have also considered. get a FG front bumper/valance combo so the top of the radiator could extend above where the factory steel bumper would be.

keep the ideas coming.....
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 02-27-2020, 11:35 AM
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got this from a friend.... 993 LS conversion.

for me thinking a bit smaller to augment a larger center radiator...


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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 03-01-2020, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911tracker85 View Post
got this from a friend.... 993 LS conversion.

for me thinking a bit smaller to augment a larger center radiator...


That's basically the exact same setup I'm going with for my 912 Subaru swap: a pair of Austin Mini radiators tucked under the headlights, behind the bumper. But with some custom ducting. This is about 210 square inches, bare minimum for a N/A subaru, with the Austin Mini radiators. To give some more safety factor, I'll also be using a center intercooler radiator, tucked under the bumper bar. This will bump up total front area to just under 300 square inches, which is way more than enough for a 200 hp Subaru 2.5.

That's a very good location, between the bumper and existing into the wheel well. There's a large pressure drop here (second largest pressure drop anywhere on the car), and if the ducting is set up right, it's an ideal location.
Old 03-01-2020, 06:56 AM
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Andy,
thanks for the docs about radiators....
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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 03-02-2020, 04:45 AM
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just sold the turbo motor to a friend, so no turning back now.

now that I have all the parts will focus on finishing the build of my 951 motor and get it back in the car and on the road....

depending on how the LS3 swap goes for the 911, will consider that if/when I blow up the rebuilt 951 motor....


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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 03-06-2020, 05:17 AM
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starting to think about this conversion and would appreciate links to threads with the following info:

what fuel pump and where. I plan to keep my stock fuel tank.

although I will probably end up with an LS3, interested in seeing LS7 conversions with dry sump.

the more I think the more questions I will have..... I am starting to get "you'll have to figure that out' answers from RH. but have not really pressed them for suggestions.
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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 03-10-2020, 05:36 AM
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I am curious how these 911 LS conversions turn out. I have a track Miata and the LS conversions never lived up to expectations. Maybe it’s the weight being up high/outside vs the stock inline 4 being lower/centered. Track guys have better luck with the LFX 6 banger. With cams that puts 300+ to the wheels.

While there maybe handling trade offs that sound is worth it!
Old 03-15-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K24madness View Post
I am curious how these 911 LS conversions turn out. I have a track Miata and the LS conversions never lived up to expectations. Maybe itís the weight being up high/outside vs the stock inline 4 being lower/centered. Track guys have better luck with the LFX 6 banger. With cams that puts 300+ to the wheels.

While there maybe handling trade offs that sound is worth it!


Subaru RB36 or Porsche M97 seem like no-brainer choices for a 6 swap. Both are fantastic motors.

Only issue is the trans. The RB36 integrated oil pan sits really low with a 915 trans, and Iím not sure if thereís a adaptor plate to hook up an M97 to a 915. Iím pretty sure the 996 trans wonít fit in an older 911.


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Old 03-16-2020, 06:20 PM
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