blasphemy- which v8 conversion is best?
 

Since I dont have a motor\transaxle Im going V8, sorry, got a 380HP awesome block from someone.

To keep the thread informative please no comments about dont do it :)

Which is better the renegade or porchev conversion?
There are two things to determine here, any advice is appreciated. They both seem like very respecable places. Horror stories anyone?

1) Quality\strength\weight of the conversion of the engine adapter parts. Seems like porchev has stronger stuff
here are the specs on the web...porchev is a wee bit cheaper

-ADAPTER PLATE
-renegade Machined from 6061 T6,aircraft grade billet aluminum
-porchev Machined from 7075 T-6 aluminum plate and anodized

- FLYWHEEL:
-renegade Machined from 4130 chromemoly of 0.750 thickness
-porchev Machined from heat treated 4340 steel

-MOTOR MOUNT
-renegade One piece welded steel construction ,alternator bracket machined from aluminum
-porchev Machined from 7075 T-6 aluminum plate and anodized. They include the coolant pump mount on one side and the alternator mount on the other side with alternator brace.

2) Quality\value\ability to cool of cooling system.
Renegade requires a change in the tank ( adds a lot of cost ) and they vent down ( told there is a low pressure area when down and it helps pull the air through)
- renegade $1100 radiator, $850 tank
- porchev ( apparantly vents out the fenders somewhere), radiator $890, weaken the chasis? work as well as renegade?
Do both cool fine if you follow the directions?

Does anyone have pictures of porchev radiator\venting?

btw, 77 911 with some rust, getting 74 rsr widebody

Don't do it!

None of them.

ianc

For all the cost, why not just pick up a used 2.7 or 3l?

I was going to get a 3.2, instead I can have a 380hp v8 new with warranty for less, thats why :0

Still Don't Do It

Do what you want it's your car and your money. y1der has a nice example I think he used the renegade kit .

This one!!!!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1084050212.jpg
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/drink.gif

By the time you get done paying for the conversion kit, motor, labor and hassle of installing it, and decreased resale from cutting up or modifying the car, you'll probably be in the hole...

ianc

I did a conversion. I choose the Simpson kit because the machine quality is superior to the cast adapter Renegade fabricates. I'll take 7075 any day over cast. I did alot of custom fabrication as well as a custom fuel tank. I did however use the Ron Davis radiator sold by Renegade as it is a very quality piece. Of course anything Ron Davis makes is quailty. I did a modified version of my own when I did the cooling system and ducting.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123280905.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123280925.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123281041.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123281164.jpg

There are some really well done V8 conversions out there.

I've spoken with Rod Simpson off and on sinse the 70's. He originated and perfected the Porchev conversion. Renegade Hybrids ripped him off. The way I understand it they were employees that stole his ideas and started their own business. True, they have expanded on his idea, but bad form none the less. Rod is a great guy who will talk at length with anyone about his conversions.

The archives may contain an old thread of mine on the subject back in 2000. I needed power, lots of power, and had a lot of small block chevy knowledge. About one week before I pulled the V8 trigger I got a call from a 930 tuner who had a lead on a good motor for a great price.
Right. There is no free lunch.
So I can play Devil's advocate.
Be it V8 or 930 power you gotta pay big bux to do it right. I guarantee you will pay FAR bigger bux for Porsche horsepower at that level, even when conversion costs are figured.
Want proof? Who wants to pay me $50,000 for my 930 powered SC? That's what it'll cost you at that level. So you loose money no matter what drivetrain runs your monster.

As for ruining a 911, who cares. It's only a car. Nothing is done that can't be reversed anyway. I've seen sooooooo many 911s on this forum that are butchered with holes cut in them, gutted this, cut out that, modded this, added that engine but had to cut out a bunch of stuff to make it fit. Hell look at Jacky O's car. Black Beauty. It's gorgeous, sexy, powerful, tastefully done ...... and butchered beyond recognision. It CANNOT be put back to stock. But it has a 911 engine so that's OK.

There's not a person on this forum who has MADE MONEY modding their 911 with pure Porsche parts. Not one.

Oh Christ Rarly, I can't believe you just said that.

I need to go smash something (not made in Germany) with my rubber mallet now...

ianc

GJF, That's a great-looking conversion. It may not be my cup of tea but I can give credit where it is due! Let's see some full view pics of your Porsche.

Rarely you hit the nail on the head. We board members sure are quick to knock somebody else's Porsche.

Some guys on this board take hole saws to the rear of their cars to give them the "race" look. Others put Carrera decals on the sides of their Non-Carrera Porsches'. Some make cabs out of Targas. Heck one member turned his cab into a coupe. Some members put Porsche crest on the steering wheels, floor mats, rims, fenders, seats, etc. As if the Porsche needs more crest, so others are sure to know its a Porsche. Juan turned his 911 into a fire-breathing drag car and did an awesome job of it. Everyone has an idea of what they want to do with their Porsche, why be so critical (as if others really want to read our negative thoughts about their car. The poster to this threat asked us to NOT to be critical of his decision, he has already decided he wants a V-8...........ymmv

GJF, which gearbox did you use? That is the point where the financial scales tipped for me. From all information I could find, a rebuilt short (or shortened) 930 four speed is about $6500. And most agree that the 915 won't hold up to the torque.

Just curious which solution you used and if you are happy with it.

Why would you post this kind of question on a board 99.9% populated with air-cooled engine nuts? Besides the obviously biased opinions, what kind of experience do you think we'll have? Sure a couple of guys will chime in, but there must be another forum you can go to for better feedback?

Guys,

Aftermath is from Edmonton... Just be satisfied he isn't planning to drop a Chrysler big block in there... Oh yah, he'll probably paint flames on it too and install an 8-Ball on the shifter...

I just had to get that dig in since I'm from Calgary... :D

The one V8 conversion I like is that flat black outlaw conversion... that doozer is doing

http://hypertec.ws/todd_porsche/photos/


Scott.

The best V-8 conversion is the S-10 Chevy

We've had a few conversions pass thru our shop. Some were (like some "pure" 911s) ratty and some nice. The term V8 conversion does not automatically mean a p.o.s. The 911 shown above has some very nice details on it. It looks like the owner spent a lot of time thinking of and then executing the install.
Rod Simpson's initial kit suggested cutting out the wheel well arches to allow radiator exhaust on each side- this severely weakened (we know- we failed a 914-8 that came in for track tech) the front end unless reinforcements were effected. So there are lots of obstacles to overcome when building a hybrid and i applaud the well executed efforts.
Afterall, a lot of these people are taking cars that would have otherwise been lost to the crusher and having them live another (hopefully) brighter day

This car would have ended up in the scrap yard....But Im gonna save it.
Just so you know, I dreamed of a flat 6 however, here are the facts.

Kit $4000 ( cooler, adapters, kevlar clutch, better pressure plate, fix gauges )
Motor $3500 @ 350HP ( My friend can polish the heads and bring it to 380HP and get me a GM discount ).
I needed a transaxle anyways so buying a 930 instead of a 915 to add another $1000\1500 to the bill.

There is no way I can buy a motor\transaxle with this much performance for the money. Plus my friends can do anything to a v8. I will even have a warranty from GM on this new motor.

Im replacing the stock suspention anyways.....

I can appreciate that some dont want me to do it, however thats not up for debate, this is a wonderful forum, I read pelican every day for months now and I drool over what some of you have done. Im just asking for some advice on something the purists dont like.

Ive sort of come to the consulsion ( thanks TRE for the bit about the fender venting ) that Rod makes a better product, however renegade has the better cooling system. Which is what my two questions at the start of this thread are about.

Has anyone done Rod's cooling system in a 911?

Maybe he doesn't know. Are there any chat places out there that you know of? If you do, please let him know. If not, don't say anything. He just wanted info, and he know he might have a chance to get it here. If you don't like the thread, don't read it.

I think you should go ahead with the V8 thing. I think it will be fun. I build many custom, funky things for a living. Building and completing something unique is a hell of a lot of fun. Some people may never know what that's like. Follow the book, follow the book, following someone is never fun. When I have the knowledge and the time, I like to do that one day.

Jeff

There are Porsche V8 conversion sites attempted from time to time. Unfortunately, there are those who favor the Simpson conversion and others who favor the Renegade conversion - and any conversion site winds up being a battle ground between these two camps. As a result there is no real useful information available and the site is eventually hacked or spammed and dies. Pelican is still the best source of info. The few conversions done by Pelican members are among the best ever completed.

However, anyone who attempts this conversion because they think it is cheaper power is in for a horrible lesson. It is at least as expensive as a Porsche branded conversion/update - in many cases more so.

Thanks Ray911, yes the pelicans seem to know it best.
Yes it will be fun doing something against the grain also.
Anyone have a list of v8-911 members or a few more names?
Im trying to gather all the costs to make a informed decision, since I will probably never have the know how to work on the engine internals and I have v8 mechaninc friends, its just seems like the way to go for me.

Conversion kit, cooling system ( possibly new fuel tank ), transaxle\clutch upgrades, recalibrate the guages seem to be the costs. AM I MISSING SOMETHING? Suspension is being replaced anyways.

Considering the price range the v8 conversion is getting to, why not do a 3.6L swap?

Ok, correct\educate me on costs. Im factoring in what I know my shipping costs to be.
Conversion kit\350HPmotor\930 transaxle - $10000 - new engine, I have resources who can help
3.2(80,000miles)\230HP?\oil cooler\915 transaxle $7500 - engine due for a rebuild soon - I will be on my own for maintenance
Comparible power costs? 3.6? transaxle\oil cooler? Im looking about $500 shipping for a motor\transaxle, which Ive added into the 3.2 costs.

But Im still trying to find out info on the cooling systems, I know if this isnt done right it will be a problem.

As it turns out, I happen to have a well-built light-weight V8 that I would trade to someone for the right 3.0L.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123351370.jpg

Since this forum is basically people weighing in with their opinions, I think I've got the right to speak what came to my mind. If you re-read my thread, I didn't say I didn't like the thread, I simply posed what I felt was a logical question.

i say , ok

every chop job on a 911 makes mine worth more,

Aftermath,

You've probably seen it, but here's a link to a thread with a beautiful V-8 conversion.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/30149-another-question-about-v8-conversions.html

v8
 

aftermath, i have a very well done conversion ....i know, 'cause i did it my self using renegade hybrids parts. if you have questions, give me an email. i have a 400 hp 930, a 73S, and the 71 rs lookalike v8 car....not cheap but 500 hp in a 2300 pound car with the engine sitting on top oof the rear wheels is a handful. on the street very well mannered. biggest problem of all is keeping heat from the front mounted radiator out of the cockpit!!
regards, larry

lin7310948@charter.net

by the way, renegade hybrids does have a very informative web site.

Guys, This car was done when I had a performance shop years ago. I have done fabriction for years for many IMSA teams years ago. I thought the pics would help you possibly for an idea. You can do a conversion very cheap or very elaborate. This car had a G50 gearbox in it with a Sachs Sport clutch. The car had about 475HP and seemed to handle the power without any problems. IMHO I think it is a must to use aluminum heads and focus on suspension to counter the added weight. If you find a good used 3.0 and a 915 gearbox it should be about the same $$$. But if you want more HP than 380 the V-8 looks attractive. It cost the same but to up the power it is easier to uprade and cheaper with the V-8. It takes the flat 6 character out of the car, but gives you good torquey acceleration. There are pros and cons and I respect everyones opinions. I prefer turbo flat sixxes. Here is my personal twin turbo slantnose. Just the rear shot as I was assembling after paint. It is all Porsche except for the EFI conversion and the Garretts and the fuel cell and the oil tank and the Hargett shifter and the fuel system and the carbon panels and .............. LOLhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123357285.jpg

Thanks for that info on the last two posts. So your saying price wise is about the same unless the HP is getting higher than 350? What does a good running stock 3.2 put out, I thought 230HP? Correct me please.

I'd say the prices run the same 'till you hit 300HP. After that the Porsche prices increase exponentially over the converted V8. But the torque curve of a big cube V8 can never be duplicated by a flat 6. A 300HP V8 would feel more powerful than a 300HP F6.

And yes, the 911 is only a car. I don't like to see them made into clown cars (like the Avalanch) but that's just an opinion. Everyone has the right to spend their money their way. Taste not withstanding.

Well..... A 3.2 with PMO's and exhaust should give you 250+. But by adding a pair of GE80's you should be well into 300 range. Which would put you alot closer to your V-8 output. End result is do what makes you happy. If you are a person with mechanical ability and a limited budget the V-8 is easier then the big cash out lay of the P-car stuff.

I have a slightly modded 2.2t and a 914 with a 327 in it. I can say that the V8 914 is much more fun to drive out in the hills but the 911 still is my favorite car due to it's good manners and balance. I think if you want something for max performance then the V8 can't be beat. The bigger Porsche motors are great, but will never have the power per $ of a Chevy. Remember that there have been a lot of advances in the Chevy V8 of late including the LS1, and that my friends, will not be easy to top with Porsche stuff for less than HUGE $$. The conversion on my 914 was so simple I am not sure a full kit is even worth buying. The radiator is out of a junkyard Jag and including my ducting cost $200. Some Gates Greenstripe hose and a bit of time and the cooling system was done. I cut out the front fenderwells but if you don't make the holes too big It does not seem to cause any problems. The adaptor plate was made by Kennedy Engineering and was not a big cost item. I just keep it simple and have had a lot of fun with that car. I say if you want to have stupid power for cheap then go V8. It seems like people over engineer these swaps, so much that the costs get blown out of proportion.

Alex

Alex, you have a good point. The staggering cost to complete my own project are largely due to beefing up the gearbox and drive train to handle high torque. My engine dyno'ed at over 410 Ft lb. Perhaps a 300hp small block would be a better fit. And if the SBC could be built to adjust the torque band up higher, a fresh 915 might handle it.

The simple fact that a 915 is not recommended for use with V8s speaks volumes.
You don't question a 915 in Porsche applications of 300HP or less. I have nearly 400(Porsche)HP and the 915 has held up for years.

I don't think hp is the issue. The V8 makes too much torque at too low in the RPM band.

My V8 does'nt make too much torque at low rpms but it was built just for this job. The short stroke 327 is all top end (3 to 7k rpm) due to my cam choice. A cam so agressive it would suck in a heavy car! I use a stock 901 tranny and don't use 1st gear. I have yet to blow the trans but if I do, another used one is $400 or so! I use a fairly soft clutch and only 215 sized tires. Still using 914 halfshafts with no failures!! I think the wrong approach is the 383 long stroke option. THose motors make a ton of low end and don't last as long due to a bad rod angle. Good for low E.T.'s in a 3500lb Chevelle but out of place in a lightweight car like yours. The best motor for our cars is a 302 with it's super short stroke and large bore. Don't worry the power will be there (300-400 hp)!

The biggest problem I have had is keeping oil pressure up coming out of turns under full power.

Alex

If you wanna v8 thats cool, but you will always be an outcast, and your car will be an out cast, i dont really care what you do, but most of us buy a 911 not only for the looks but the sound of a flat 6 with a good exhaust, girls always say man your car sounds so cool (3.6 conversion with B&B headers, they never said that about any muscle car i had or my v8 race car, Kevin

Different sounds, different girls my friend. If you are thinking about making time with the ladies more than times on the track I'm sorry. Most of the women I meet like a good conversation and a house in the Hollywood hills.

Anyhow... The "outlaw(cast)" nature of the V8 is a perfect way to make a regular Porsche interesting.

Alex