Pelican Parts Forums - Porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

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67dubcab

02-02-2010 02:10 PM

Porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

Hello all,
I bought my 67 double cab eight years ago with a 2110 stroker engine and stock suspension, It serves as my daily driver/ shop truck (wood shop).
It ran well for about 15,000 miles till the forged crank snapped in half. I ran it (slowly!) for about a year with the single port 1600 out of my Ghia convertible, then a front wheel
bearing seized and destroyed the spindle. Time to make some changes!

My plan at the time was to replace the swingaxle with a I.R.S. kit from Wagenswest and go for a adjustable narrowed balljoint front beam with 2.5" welded drop spindles from a early 944, rear steel arms and master cylinder from the same car.
I picked up a cheap 85 944 (broken timing belt) as a parts donor and went to work. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265148739.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265148770.jpg
Mini me-chanic gettin' some work done between naps.

The engine for this build was going to be a 2.0 914 stroker which I started to collect parts for, I ordered a built vw transaxle to back it up.
While waiting for the transaxle I put in a used, hyper 1835 to get back on the road.
It ran well (a little loud) handled well and braking was awesome.
Ends up I would have to wait forever for the transaxle as the builder ran off with my money(and many others, went from feedback hero to straight up thief).
The next thing that happened is the 1835 develops a terminal oil leak.
Time to make some more changes!

I had this idea while pulling parts off the 944 about using the rear transaxle to a shortened torque tube to a mid- mounted 911 engine.........

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:47 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:49 PM

http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2435614041.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2435614042.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2435614730.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2435614741.jpg

Stephen brought me some blue prints for a big square thing. I wasn't entirely sure what I was building at this point really, but later came to realize Stephen did a really good job designing all the parts I built from his blue prints. His drawings where also some of the best I have gotten to work from, I get a lot of napkin drawings, or just a picture of something and "build this."

http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2472054590.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2472054601.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2472054602.jpg

Then there was the bell housing. Again I wasn't entirely sure what was going on here, I just weld stuff. He brought in the housing pre cut, and a piece of thick 6061 angle trimmed to fit it. I welded it together after some extensive cleaning of the housing.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2560107920.jpg

He took it back to his machinist at this point and had it milled down to match the flange and a hole cut for the shaft. I used the piece in the center to index the 944 section that bolts to the torque tube.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2560107931.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2560109510.jpg

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:51 PM

Later he brought the sub frame back and had some motor mount drawings. He had seen some dimpled holes I used on something else and liked them. And as always "stronger, lighter, faster" is the goal. So I built the mounts out of 1/8" cold rolled 1018 plate with a 2.5" and 2" dimpled hole, and the top plates are 3/16" for both the front and rear mounts.

Here is the mock up on the mounts, measuring and figuring still.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2561939720.jpg

TIG welded and added a flange for some rigidity.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2561939731.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2561939732.jpg

Then pasted onto the subframe.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2562627040.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2562627041.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2562627042.jpg

It wasn't until later when I first saw the motor that all this stuff clicked in my head and started to make sense as to what I was building.

I modified an RCI fuel cell for him to fit over the tunnel I made to fit over the torque tube (forgot to take pictures of that part though). I also added a filler neck to the side of the tank that will line up with stock gas door. I made it out of 2" .120 wall 6061 T6 tube and cut a 30 degree angle on the end to make it easier to get the fuel hose onto, and so that it looks cleaner.

http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2622381361.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2622381362.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2622382680.jpg

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:52 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:53 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:54 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:54 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:56 PM

Twisted Minis

02-02-2010 06:56 PM

Here are some custom bolts I made to put coilovers on the narrowed beam. The bearing on the coilovers the Stephen got have an oddball bearing, that measures .588" (I made custom spacers to go from this size to a 1/2" bolt for the rear and lower front mount). So instead of running a bolt with a spacer on it, I figured I would make something a little stronger that looks a little cleaner. The bolt itself is 4130 chromoly, all corners lightly radiused to prevent any stress risers, and the suspension load is transferred entirely into the chromoly piece. The other side is just an aluminum spacer that holds the shock in place (side to side, it's a clamp) allows for some misalignment (same as on the chromoly side, cut at 30 degrees .130" in depth), that uses a counter sunk bolt to keep the spacer in place and provide a flush clean look.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636098040.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636098062.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636098061.jpg

And here it is installed. I added another mount 3/4" lower to gain a little bit of suspension droop at Stephen's desired ride height.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636903230.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636903241.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2636903242.jpg

And here it is outside before going home for a bit.
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2638710181.jpg
http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_ph...2638710182.jpg

Now it's time for bed. Any questions I will be happy to answer, and I will check back in tomorrow night. Probably late again as my days have been long at the shop lately.

67dubcab

02-02-2010 08:40 PM

That is where the d.c is at right now, all the big stuff is fabbed in and the truck is back at my shop while Seth (mad skillz fabricator) builds up some Mercedes race car or something.
The build list:
Engine- used 84 3.2 modified to lower profile to fit under seat by cutting and turning intake manifold. 993 heat exchanger with rotated flanges to face the opposite (correct!) direction.

Suspension- 90 944s2 donated torsion housing, Brembo brakes, front spindles(welded onto the ball joint front end from first build) master cylinder, transaxle and rear aluminum arms which I swapped out for 86 944 arms to reduce offset.
Lightly used Bilstein coil-overs to increase spring rates front and rear(still running torsion bars)

Full cage- If you have driven in a bus you would see the merit in this verses the downside of street driven cage vehicles.

The double cab is my daily driver so all build design decisions were made with this intended use: reliable/ carry kids (two minimum, custom back seat will get headrests,shoulder belts)/carry 1000# plus loads, the rear shock rocker system was designed to extend travel to 7", 3" droop, 4'' compression at ride height./brake and handle reasonably well (for a truck!)/ outrun aggressively driven farm tractors.

Fishcop

02-04-2010 02:48 AM

Wow, you guys really know your stuff! That metalwork is beautiful!

Very hard to find dual cabs over here...

FF2239

02-09-2010 03:26 PM

Amazing.

Your taking the Type-2/Porsche marriage to a whole new level.

Continue to keep us informed with the detailed photos & descriptions, it is very motivating.

merbesfield

03-08-2010 08:04 AM

Beautiful fabrication work.

micheloaks

03-10-2010 03:20 AM

ouch!

67dubcab

03-17-2010 08:18 PM

Hello,
Not sure what you mean by "ouch", but thanks for the response regardless.
You Aussies are a strange bunch, I had family in Coober Pedy so I have direct knowledge of this.

micheloaks

04-07-2010 03:02 AM

67 dubcab - 'ouch' as in it hurts to look at - excellent work!

I got family in Coober Pedy as well - definitely an odd bunch out there.

Beetspeed

04-07-2010 06:54 AM

Amazing work! Of course crazy beautifull welding skills, but the design idea with the rear transaxle and mid-engine lay-out is downright briljant!

Nice used rear Bilstein coil-overs. Wouldn't mind a pair myself ;-)
Those lower mounting bolts in the arms have a 1/2 inch diameter eight? Were the Bilstein lower uniballs also 1/2 inch holes??

Tnx for posting this project!
Walter

JIM DRAGTEAM

04-07-2010 02:09 PM

Excellent job, congrats !

Please post as many pics as you can !

Rgds,
Jim

67dubcab

04-08-2010 10:39 PM

Hey Micheloaks, thanks for that "ouch" as here that could be a response of concern as to cutting up a some what rare old bus.
As to Coober Pedy, well I have never been but have cut and polished a few of those funny rocks they collect , and had family willingly go there and even stay a spell.

Hey beetspeed, the mid engine layout was my idea but all the fab work is Seth
from Twisted Minis, all I can do is glue bits of wood together.
Thanks for the props on the design, it seems to be coherent in reality which is reassuring.

The lower shock mount bolt is a Racers Edge part made to convert the 944 arm to coilover and delete the torsion bars. Paragon sells them. It is indeed .5 inch as that is standard (here) for coilover shock mounts.
I found the Bilsteins for sale on the 944 parts forums here and they are indeed nice shocks, they were apparently take-offs from a Cobra kit car but had a weird bearing size, .588 or so, not a problem for mad skillz fabstar Seth to make them work.
There are more notes and pictures from the build on "The Samba.com" in "readers rides"- Porsche Powered Double Cab Build.

Jim Dragteam, I will post up more soon as the d.c. has been resting lately while Seth works on a Mercedes Lemons race car build.

67dubcab

04-16-2010 05:19 PM

Porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

I have a few more photos showing how the drive train mocks up. I bolted it together to determine the drive shaft length, the 944 shaft is a bit long and does not have the 911 clutch spline, it will be machined to the "correct" dimensions as the good folk at Porsche intended.:eek:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271467061.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271467087.jpg

roomservice

04-19-2010 03:07 AM

Hi, I like what you built, nice job. I want to mount a subaru twin turbo motor in a 69 bus. I have the kennedy adaptor, 944 rear suspension, and a shop full of porsche parts. I will post pictures of the build as this project continues.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271675203.jpg

Hcarraro

04-25-2010 08:27 AM

Simply fabulous work. Great vision and design and decising making to take some risks. And oh my goodness what a fabricator and welder. I am simply astounded at how well you two work together. Holy guacamole you guys are the best.

Keep up the good work.

Henry

67dubcab

04-26-2010 07:48 PM

Thanks Hcarraro,
Glad you appreciate the build.
It took a bit of nerve to make the first cut and commit to the vision but I am a "modify and conquer" kinda guy.
Finding Seth to do the metal fabrication was a excellent match as he is just like me in his design /build skills except he can weld, metalwork, fabricate, and is 25 years younger.:)

Hey roomservice, sounds like a fun project even with the water cooled part, not sure why you would want twice the power at half the cost- but hey its your ride.:rolleyes:

d.a.autry

05-13-2010 08:34 PM

SuuuuWEEET.

We want vids when available now. Absolutely fantastic vision to fruition!

BTW, if you still have that 944 shell sitting around, pm me.

Surfaccing

05-19-2010 04:09 PM

how did u go about cutting the shaft between the motor and transaxle?
i would like to know if u can do this with a 928 transaxle as i have a v8 project in mind.

67dubcab

05-19-2010 05:39 PM

porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

Hey Surfaccing,
The drive shaft has not been cut yet but the plan is to cut to its new length then machine to the 911 spline dimensions.
The 911 spline is smaller than the 944 so machining is possible.

If you are planning a v8 then look into the v8 hybrid swaps to 944 and 928, Renegade Hybrid and the Porsche Hybrid board site.

Hope that helps,
Stephen.

Surfaccing

05-19-2010 06:51 PM

ok the drive shaft must be something else. how did u get the shaft between the transaxle and the engine so short?

the v8 project i was to do is similar to yours, but i want a 928 transaxle and a chevy/ford small block in a vw bug. thats why i want to know about how u got the shaft so short

67dubcab

05-19-2010 08:02 PM

porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

Hey again Surfaccing,
The thing you are looking cut short is the torque tube. Inside centered by sealed bearings is the driveshaft.
The tube is cut to length after the engine and transaxle are in their finished mounts.
I had a machinist mill a sleeve to splice the tube then my fabricator welded it up.
It must be as straight as possible to reduce axial loads onto bearings.
The actual cutting can be done by sawzall, cut-off disc, bandsaw ect......

The 928 transaxle is much longer than the 944 and may not have acceptable drive shaft angles, it depends if you are keeping your torsion housing.

If you are not planning to cut your torsion housing you could run 944 aluminum arms, brakes ect. and hang a 944 turbo transaxle to a shortened torque tube to a 944 hybrid v8 bellhousing to the v8 in a sub-frame mid engine.

If you are going full custom tube frame and suspension with the engine bolted directly to the transaxle then a 944 or 928 transaxle would be less desirable.

The basic layout using your existing torsion housing would look like the photos on my shop floor of the engine and T.T (torque tube) connected to the 944 transaxle except the 911 engine would be a v8 and the T.T. would be even shorter.

Stephen.

Surfaccing

05-19-2010 08:49 PM

thank u so much, that made so much sense!
u saved my ass, the 944 is going to be a lot cheaper setup then the 928 (obviously)
any way u can show more photos or ur torque tube being cut up and the internals that are inside?
and when u get the drive shaft cut and reassembled can u be a detailed for me.

thank u for the help!

67dubcab

05-21-2010 07:12 PM

Porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

Hey Surfaccing,
The torque tube is just that, with the bearings inside and drive shaft, go to "Clarks garage" and under garage shop manual look up torque tube rebuild.
It shows shaft and bearing removal.

I will post up here and on "The samba" where I have a build thread in the readers ride section on my progress in general and post to your thread here for future questions regarding your build as you move forward.

Surfaccing

05-22-2010 12:42 AM

ohhh man u have the balls to post this on the samba? those guys are a bunch of purist and don't like seeing this stuff done to their split window buses, let alone a double cab bus. i warn u now ur going to get flamed alot, those guys are straigh up a**holes

don't listen to those guys negative critisim! i think what ur doing is great! and it's only gonna make this bus run like a stabbed rat

thanks for the link to clarks garage, great site im readng through it now

67dubcab

05-22-2010 06:35 PM

porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

I have had my build thread up for months on The Samba and after 20,000+ views and numerous posts there has been little negative response.

I have been checking out The Samba for over ten years and yes there are a few vocal members who are offended if your wheels are not date matched to your original build date but to me it takes all types.

I think the lack of outrage to my project is probably due more to my fabricator Seth"s skill than my build design,probably not a lot of folk fans of Euro race style trucks, but it works for me!

Surfaccing

05-23-2010 12:53 AM

u have a build log up already?
were is it exactly, or what is it's title?
i wanna read through it
i haven't seen it

i got on thesamba 3years ago when i got my first ever car (72 non super bug) and everytime i mention v8 or a porsche transaxle or a porsche engine i get so much crap thrown my way and little to no adivce, which is why i come over to other forums like this one and stumble across ur magnificent work!

67dubcab

05-23-2010 09:19 AM

porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

The build thread is in the readers ride forum with the same title as this post.
It has slipped into page three as it has not gotten a posted reply for a bit.

German look.net and shop talk forums also have some conversion/Porsche content.

ViolentBlue

05-26-2010 12:25 PM

Wow, seriously nice work there.

AOW162435

08-04-2010 05:49 AM

Amazing fabrication work! Thanks for posting.

Andreas

jadewombat

08-04-2010 08:22 AM

Really top notch stuff, but err umm where's the turbo? ;)

Just kidding of course...needs a Roots blower.

67dubcab

12-21-2010 08:21 PM

porsche Powered Mid-Engine Double Cab

Thanks all for the comments,
Have been working (slowly) on sandblasting/ rust work/ metal prep. for painting the chassis.
Painted the underbody/engine bay/trunk with MasterSeries products and they worked great.
Still have the front chassis left but will wait till it goes to the fabricator for that, lots of work to do up there.

For now I can start work on drive-train re-install and systems design.
Working on fuel first.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292994518.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292994538.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292994555.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292994572.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292994590.jpg

jadewombat, no room for blower but twin turbos in 2013 or so might work well, especially since the truck has so much room for a proper exhaust (compared to a 911)!

Flieger

12-21-2010 08:55 PM

Wow, those welds are beautiful. And the quality of the engineering going into this project. The roll cage design, pushrod suspension, mid-engine...

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