Questionable Practices at Bring A Trailer ( BAT )

[trader220]

Originally Posted by msort81

The whole thing is like watching a train wreck because like the OP i know this car is a tracked out, TMU car that needs a split case re build and complete suspension do over prolly $30k spend minimum without even addressing the potentially dodgy body work.

He got vocal support from some dealers says it all

This is the black 964 coupe? Which dealer chimed in?

[Arne2]

I find it interesting that people want to hold BaT to a higher standard than other sales facilitators. We expect these seller games on eBay, CL, and Samba. And don't get me started on the cr@p that rolls across the stages at the big auctions.

The only difference with BaT is the peanut gallery. If I was looking to buy, I can't see myself trusting very many of the commenters. Just like with any other site, I'd want to see it in person, or have an agent do so for me.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by trader220

I hate to throw gas (non ethanol 93 octane) on the fire but.... I also believe that there are plenty of plants and shills on BAT. Plants who talk up the car or seller and are either in business with the seller, are friends with the seller or are the actual seller under another name. I also think there is some shill bidding going on, not vast amounts but enough to simply push the cars up to the reserve line, especially on the less expensive stuff.

Imagine if BaT purged all of these plants and shills...how few real members there actually are. It does seem like most auctions have their fair share of these.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Imagine if BaT purged all of these plants and shills...how few real members there actually are. It does seem like most auctions have their fair share of these.

I don't think plants/shills represent the majority. I also think at times its obvious. Lets not forget some of the practices of some of the sellers. One dealer from Dallas, endlessly flogs his own auctions and opening solicits for aftermarkets like trucking and extended warranty sales. Does constantly posting what a great deal the car is at "$10 grand more than the current bid" or endlessly reminding people how much time is left and they should bid aggressively really work?

[JMS935]

I say so few because the vast majority of the comments are praising the cars when often times there’s not much to actually praise. It’s almost like some of these members, whether plants or not, give the same glowing praises day in and day out regardless of the actual condition of the subject car just to post a comment. It’s ridiculous to say the least. So even if they’re not actual plants, they still offer no value whatsoever to the website. They’re nothing more than fillers just taking up space. Remove all of the shills, plants and fillers...and you’re not left with much.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by JMS935

I say so few because the vast majority of the comments are praising the cars when often times there’s not much to actually praise. It’s almost like some of these members, whether plants or not, give the same glowing praises day in and day out regardless of the actual condition of the subject car just to post a comment. It’s ridiculous to say the least. So even if they’re not actual plants, they still offer no value whatsoever to the website. They’re nothing more than fillers just taking up space. Remove all of the shills, plants and fillers...and you’re not left with much.

I would agree with you, there would be basically a silent auction. I find much of the banter entertaining. As someone who has a dealer's license, has access to a vast amount of market information, and who buys and sells cars frequently, I just laugh at some of the unfettered BS that people offer up as substantive comments on condition or pricing. JMS if you recall I am also a former derivatives trader, the trader in me instinctively kicks in as I watch these auctions. The bidding strategies, the comments, the shills, the plants, they all add to the entertainment value.... as someone said earlier...at times its like watching a train wreck, you just can't turn away.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by trader220

I would agree with you, there would be basically a silent auction. I find much of the banter entertaining. As someone who has a dealer's license, has access to a vast amount of market information, and who buys and sells cars frequently, I just laugh at some of the unfettered BS that people offer up as substantive comments on condition or pricing. JMS if you recall I am also a former derivatives trader, the trader in me instinctively kicks in as I watch these auctions. The bidding strategies, the comments, the shills, the plants, they all add to the entertainment value.... as someone said earlier...at times its like watching a train wreck, you just can't turn away.

I view it the exact same way, and I’m a former trader myself. Most of it is a joke. I was in the pits at the CBOT many years ago, first as a broker filling house orders, then on my own as a local. Back when there was actually pit trading, with writing each trade down on a trading card! Jeez, that seems like ages ago.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by JMS935

I view it the exact same way, and I’m a former trader myself. Most of it is a joke. I was in the pits at the CBOT many years ago, first as a broker filling house orders, then on my own as a local. Back when there was actually pit trading, with writing each trade down on a trading card! Jeez, that seems like ages ago.

I had seats on the PHLX, AMEX, CME and PSE at different times. Ten years I was a market maker for a few different larger firms, ten years I was with 2 partners we had market makers on 4 different exchanges. Sure there are times I miss the old days too. I know what its like to actually trade in a pit, when your word actually meant something, when the **** hit the fan and you couldn't turn off your computer and ghost the market. Its a lost skill, and a long dead way of life. The lessons you learn on how to read markets and people are valuable skills. The whole way I think about any business is shaped by what I learned as a trader. Its one of the reasons I am both critical and entertained by the BAT auctions.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by trader220

I had seats on the PHLX, AMEX, CME and PSE at different times. Ten years I was a market maker for a few different larger firms, ten years I was with 2 partners we had market makers on 4 different exchanges. Sure there are times I miss the old days too. I know what its like to actually trade in a pit, when your word actually meant something, when the **** hit the fan and you couldn't turn off your computer and ghost the market. Its a lost skill, and a long dead way of life. The lessons you learn on how to read markets and people are valuable skills. The whole way I think about any business is shaped by what I learned as a trader. Its one of the reasons I am both critical and entertained by the BAT auctions.

I had a CME seat, which ironically ended up being my best trade. I traded grain options myself.

I hear ya on the ‘your word is your bond’ thing, which is basically not applicable to anywhere but on a trading floor. I’ve been burned a few times expecting that motto to be reciprocal to me, and learned the hard way that that bond is only relevant in a trading pit environment.

[trader220]

The following comment is cut and pasted from the black 964 C2 coupe as three bidders duke it out 250 bucks a pop at the end of the auction.

"The three top bidders have all gotten their BAT accounts this month. Have not made a comment or bid on any car but this one"

[JMS935]

And what are the chances they all have the same IP address too. Hmmm...

[trader220]

Originally Posted by JMS935

And what are the chances they all have the same IP address too. Hmmm...

LoL

The same crap goes on at the live auctions too. Many years ago there was a big tah doo at the BJ auction and they kicked out some journalists who had exposed some of the trickery they use. That's why I love the trading floor.... if you bid there you better be prepared to own em there. Conversely...."hit the bid or hit the road"

[Rick Brooklyn]

At live auctions there's even the concept of the "chandelier bid", when the auction guy fishes for action by throwing in a kind of a fake bid from the house, which is customarily done by discreetly pointing at the ceiling (where the chandelier hangs from, hence the name). That's some top bull****.

[techweenie]

There's usually a lot of cheerleading on BAT, until the trend turns, then people jump on the 'trash the car' bandwagon.

It's fun to watch, IMO.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by techweenie

There's usually a lot of cheerleading on BAT, until the trend turns, then people jump on the 'trash the car' bandwagon.

It's fun to watch, IMO.

Yeah, I had the cheerleaders on my FJ40 auction that closed yesterday, and the worm never turned on me so I didn't get any trash talk. All in all, I thought my experience selling there was not bad. Was hoping the bidding might take off, but since I had set the reserve at a level I could live with, any sale was OK.

And while the final minutes of the auction were stressful, I honestly don't think I could have done any better elsewhere, and this didn't require as much effort as trying to sell on other forums and such.

[sapman]

Originally Posted by trader220

I don't think plants/shills represent the majority.

Agreed. I've only bought one and sold one car on BAT. While I think they are not the most organized when dealing with the seller, the platform seems to be a good place to find and sell good examples of cars. While not every car is good, the percentage that are is much, much better than what you see on ebay etc. The sales prices they attain are typically very good too.

[trader220]

Even with all its faults, I enjoy watching the auctions when I can. As some have said...often its like watching a train wreck, you just can't turn away. So often it makes me chuckle when I read grossly misinformed comments, especially on pricing.

[trader220]

This is one of the sellers that makes me laugh:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-911-carrera-6/#comments

His comments thanking people for all the "emails, phone calls and stopping by"

I call BS. Its a plain Jane base carrera 997 people are not popping out of the woodwork to come see it, call about it or sending him emails. Evidenced by the fact that he represents more posted comments on his auction than anyone else. The substance of his comments its essentially nothing but cheerleading.

The car he is selling was purchased at Manheim in Manheim PA a month ago for low $40's plus fees. I don't think he's turning a profit on this one.

[msort81]

This is one of the sellers that makes me laugh:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-911-carrera-6/#comments

Funny how such a stock looking 997 looks dated to me now. The way the height is set, the wheel size, the styling. Back in the noughties i thought this was a stunningly good looking car.

[SalParadise]

Auctions are for suckers and clowns.

If you're a real man you have connections in the car world and buy the car before it ever hits the market. If you are a real man, but lack in funds, you can hit Craigslist or something like the Bargain News - and get vicious. If you are a real man, and lack complete social grace or pocket change for a paper, then hit the back roads and knock on doors when you see something interesting out back or in the garage.

Auctions are for people who don't know a thing about classic cars - nor do they care, because they like the thrill of it - like gambling and gaining their precious moments of glory.