Is 'recently serviced' really a good selling point?

mopydick · 06-11-2019, 04:37 AM

I'm on the prowl for a 996 / 997 C4, and am quite aware of the IMS issues.

Surprisingly, I have found most (2 out of 3) sellers are ok with the idea of me taking a oil sample to have analyzed, and some will even let me change their oil (1 out of 3), so that I can open the oil filter and check for metal bits.

When I see a car that has been 'recently serviced', it means that the oil and filter have been changed. Obviously, this mitigates my oil testing / filter cutting strategy.

Do you think a seller that knows his IMS is on the hairy edge, has the service done to help mask the issue? Or am I being unfairly paranoid about mankind?

Matt Monson · 06-11-2019, 06:23 AM

Ultimately you've got to take each one on a case by case basis. I forget the actual number, but my memory says the failure rate was only something like 5% and in large part the internet and print media has made it into this huge thing. I'm not discounting it as a risk so much as pointing out that if you leave the Porsche enthusiast fishbowl it's not as big of a deal. The average owner in many instances might not even know about it and wouldn't be trying to cover it up.

That doesn't mean that you won't come across "that guy" in your travels. You still need to watch for him, but you can't really decide until you meet him. As we often say, you buy the seller. You've got to go see the car, talk to the owner, and decide what you think once you do.

Lastly, 997 is not the same as 996. If you have a big fear of the IMS issue, then only shop for 997s. That will remove the bulk of the risk.

mopydick · 06-11-2019, 06:53 AM

Oh, I'm not thrown off by the IMS debacle (although Porsche should be embarrassed and should have addressed the problem more honestly, but that's a whole other discussion).

In fact, I'm looking for a 996 because its still a good car but has taken a substantial devaluation hit due to the IMS. And I'm just trying to make an informed purchase decision by checking the oil for any indicators.

And you're absolutely correct about some owners aren't even aware of the issue. I looked at a 2008 the other day, and asked about the owner his thoughts on the IMS. He had no idea what I was talking about, which blew me away. As Porsche nuts, we obsess about lots of things. Where this guy - he just liked the car and drove it. Ignorance is bliss.

racer · 06-11-2019, 07:08 AM

I think "recently serviced" is a selling point for many sellers. "hey, I just spent $xxx on the car so you won't have to" is the general idea. I doubt a recent oil change is being done to hide IMS /oil shavings issues. Its viewed as "pro active" and a way to perhaps justify a price, vs a low baller coming in and say "well, it needs oil, brakes, waterpump etc.. so I'll offer you $5k less than asking"

Locker537 · 06-11-2019, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mopydick

And you're absolutely correct about some owners aren't even aware of the issue. I looked at a 2008 the other day, and asked about the owner his thoughts on the IMS. He had no idea what I was talking about, which blew me away. As Porsche nuts, we obsess about lots of things. Where this guy - he just liked the car and drove it. Ignorance is bliss.

To some people, they are just cars, or status symbols. It throws me off as well.

specialtyoneinc · 06-11-2019, 08:00 AM

I feel like you're paranoid about it but I would be too. The question I would be asking myself is: Are you still going to worry about engine failure after you buy a car that checks all your boxes and inspections? Can you afford a new engine or rebuild if something catastrophic happens? I would go with a 997 over a 996. Less of a failure rate. 997.2 if in your budget. There's allot to theories when and why the bearing go out. I heard horror stories and I've seen cars drive well into the 100k without replacement. It's definitely rolling the dice when it comes to the 996 M96. Certain years are supposedly more prone to failure. Sounds like you know the deal on these cars. Best of luck whatever way you go.

Matt Monson · 06-11-2019, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locker537

To some people, they are just cars, or status symbols. It throws me off as well.

I would say most people. The 996 era was when Porsche went mainstream. When they turned ten years old lots of people bought them because they were cheap sports cars. Now twenty years on they are just cars to many people. That’s exactly what my Boxster was to me. It was just a nice little top down daily driver.

I’ve got a buddy who drives his 87 930 on the weekends and drives a ratty as hell 996 cab as a commuter. He’s had it since new and just drives it.

mrdeezy · 06-11-2019, 09:34 AM

You sound so paranoid it will hurt your ownership experience as well. If a seller asked to do any mechanical work on a car I was selling I would just hang up them.

Locker537 · 06-11-2019, 09:38 AM

mopydick, the way I'd approach a 996/997 purchase is, either:

1) Only pursue cars that have had the IMS bearing upgraded / solution installed

or

2) Determine the price I'd pay with the expectation of doing it at your next convenience

From everything I've read, there is no sure way to determine if the IMS bearing is going to fail.

911boost · 911boost's Garage

Get a turbo.

Problem solved.

mopydick · 06-11-2019, 09:47 AM

So here's the full story on where I'm coming from. I have a 2007 Cayman with 36k miles on it. I've been driving it a lot more regularly lately than in the 1st 10 years (I bought it new). On the last oil change, I opened up the filter and found a small sliver of metal. The oil looked fine. Nonetheless I sent it off to Blackstone labs to see what they have to say.

So, from my direct experience, I feel that checking the oil and filter is a pretty good method of getting some sense of the state of the engine. Is my engine about to blow up? I doubt it but the oil analysis results will be interesting.

I also have a '78 SC which I've owned 25+ years. I've always opened the filter after an oil change, and once in a blue moon I'll find a sliver of metal. So I understand that a bit of metal doesn't necessarily mean the end of the world.

Seems to me, checking the the state of the oil (and filter) would be an important part of any sort of PPI, and shouldn't be considered intrusive (especially in light of the history of the IMS prone engines of the dark decade of Porsche).

And if one had some suspicion that their engine is on its way out (as my Cayman could possibly be), I could change the oil and filter, and declare it healthy. Or I could leave the oil/filter in its natural state for someone (like me) to inspect and find that I'm about to sell a car with a semi-suspicious engine.

mopydick · 06-11-2019, 10:07 AM

Oh, some additional points.

1) Turbos - yes, everybody should have one. Not for me. I don't like the complexity. I don't need the power, and I'm one of those wacko's that still likes to get decent gas mileage. I can squeeze 31 mpg out of the Cayman when I'm nice to it.

2) I have a lift. I rebuild my own engines. I've replaced 3 IMS bearings so far. Amazing, how friends come out of the wood work when you have a lift.

My point in checking the oil/filter is not to avoid a IMS prone engine. It is to avoid buying one whose engine is already on the way to failure.

specialtyoneinc · 06-11-2019, 10:21 AM

Sounds like you should only inspect cars that haven't had a recent oil service to calm your anxiety

Matt Monson · 06-11-2019, 10:23 AM

When I was Boxster shopping, I paid for PPIs on two before I bought the 3rd one. In both instances I asked the shop to cut the filter for me. In neither instance did I have a problem with the car owner allowing me to do it. I told them that they would be getting a free oil change and if I passed on the car because I had concerns, I would share that information with them and they could decide what to do with that information going forward.

One guy pulled the car from the market and did the IMS before relisting it. The other guy pretended like nothing had happened and just left the car for sale as-is. Of course this also answers your first question about some people hiding this stuff...

Rawknees'Turbo · 06-11-2019, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

When I was Boxster shopping, ...

AKA - when you were exploring your soft, sensitive, feminine side!!!

Matt Monson · 06-11-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

AKA - when you were exploring your soft, sensitive, feminine side!!!

Dude, I drive 914s, 912s and targas. What makes you think I'm new to soft?
Though I bet this makes even you a little hard...

Rawknees'Turbo · 06-11-2019, 11:44 AM

^^^

No doubt! Love that man-style wing and boss flares!

mopydick · 06-11-2019, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

Sounds like you should only inspect cars that haven't had a recent oil service to calm your anxiety

Yeah, this was my original point.

If the car is starting to lose its IMS, as observed by the oil/filter, maybe a good way to hide the issue is to keep the oil fresh for a PPI.

And then paranoid guys, like me, won't be able to detect it until a couple of weeks later.

Macroni · Macroni's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

AKA - when you were exploring your soft, sensitive, feminine side!!!

Yikes, he bought it from me......

Alan A · 06-11-2019, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mopydick

Yeah, this was my original point.

If the car is starting to lose its IMS, as observed by the oil/filter, maybe a good way to hide the issue is to keep the oil fresh for a PPI.

And then paranoid guys, like me, won't be able to detect it until a couple of weeks later.

It starts to go and takes a while? I was under the impression it was a bit more - shall we say - rapid acting.