Got Banned on BaT with This Informative Writeup About the 964s

[Matt Monson]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8EMndSFFMk

[matt930s]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8EMndSFFMk

And I raise you (from Ronnie’s thread):

[maninblack]

Originally Posted by NYNick

I think the problem you had was you posted your opinion in the wrong place. BaT tries to protect its sellers, with good intentions. Bad mouthing a car you have no intention of buying is viewed (by them and others) as bad form.

I agree with your opinion. It was just the wrong forum to post it.

100%.

If that had been posted on one of my auctions I would've been pissed.

[maninblack]

Originally Posted by NYNick

Water cooled Cabs with the windows up and the rear windscreen are almost wind proof. Almost.

The 944 cabs are even better. Just bought a '91 944 Turbo cab and it's the only topless car the wife will ride in.

[speednme1]

Interesting read. Having driven and owned a few aircooled 911’s from different generations I will add my two pennies. I think the OP’s BAT comment have some truth in it but BAT is not the place for a history lesson unless that history is about the actual car being sold. With that said every generation has its plus and minuses. The 964 is no different. The car had a modern suspension, better working HVAC, a more rigid chassis, better transmission..etc..etc. Was it perfect? No but most of what wasn’t that great back then I’m sure some tuners/builders have found a way to make it better. I’ve driven a 964RS and thought the car was fantastic. The car did feel different from a regular C2. Is it worth all the extra money? Maybe, at least to some folks. Is it the next 2.7RS maybe not but it’s not supposed to be. It supposed to be the raw model of the 964 lineage. By the way, I used to own a 94 3.6T and I loved that car…do I think it’s worth what folks are paying today?..nope but I understand why they do. Currently I own a 993 Turbo and think that it’s a better car than the 94 but better doesn’t always mean it’s more desirable. Most if not all of these classics are emotional nostalgic buys, so some comments, statements or facts are not applicable for potential buyers and don’t necessarily have a place in an auction like BAT.

[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

Here's the word coming from a guy who wears a Nickleback Tour shirt and a Von Dutch hat to Cars and Coffee.



You give the impression that you're broke and prefer all of Porsche's dark horse cars (ie cheap cars) that kind of stink. 944s and Boxsters and 996's. So it would be natural for you to choose the worst 911 they ever made. Would be natural.



What you remind me is of is a poseur who really can't play in a man's game. Someone who likes to post half-baked opinions about things that they don't even know about and grab on to some idea whether or not it's based in reality and run with it. Someone who likes to follow the latest trends.



But then again, I wouldn't know. I've never attended a meet. I'm not even close to being a Boomer.



Stay cheap my friend, stay cheap.

Was this reply a real fragile ego getting triggered by butthurt or a parody of one? If it''s a parody it's just too perfect.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by RobFrost

Was this reply a real fragile ego getting triggered by butthurt or a parody of one? If it''s a parody it's just too perfect.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

That’s full parody from the looks of it.

[JP-"S" STL]

Originally Posted by matt930s

Never understood the 911 cab hate; doesn’t happen with other marques.

It definitely does. I. E. Look at the E46 M3 market.

I'm with a few others about "why do this to a seller's post when you have ZERO intentions in bidding. Do you really need your voice heard that much. The best thing about the Internet is it gave the ability to hear everyone's opinion,. The worst thing about the Internet is that you get to hear everyone's opinion.

Yes, I realize I'm contradicting myself by posting about this.

[RSTarga]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

Here's the word coming from a guy who wears a Nickleback Tour shirt and a Von Dutch hat to Cars and Coffee.

You give the impression that you're broke and prefer all of Porsche's dark horse cars (ie cheap cars) that kind of stink. 944s and Boxsters and 996's. So it would be natural for you to choose the worst 911 they ever made. Would be natural.

What you remind me is of is a poseur who really can't play in a man's game. Someone who likes to post half-baked opinions about things that they don't even know about and grab on to some idea whether or not it's based in reality and run with it. Someone who likes to follow the latest trends.

But then again, I wouldn't know. I've never attended a meet. I'm not even close to being a Boomer.

Stay cheap my friend, stay cheap.

You mean like these guys?

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by speednme1

Interesting read. Having driven and owned a few aircooled 911’s from different generations I will add my two pennies. I think the OP’s BAT comment have some truth in it but BAT is not the place for a history lesson unless that history is about the actual car being sold. With that said every generation has its plus and minuses. The 964 is no different. The car had a modern suspension, better working HVAC, a more rigid chassis, better transmission..etc..etc. Was it perfect? No but most of what wasn’t that great back then I’m sure some tuners/builders have found a way to make it better. I’ve driven a 964RS and thought the car was fantastic. The car did feel different from a regular C2. Is it worth all the extra money? Maybe, at least to some folks. Is it the next 2.7RS maybe not but it’s not supposed to be. It supposed to be the raw model of the 964 lineage. By the way, I used to own a 94 3.6T and I loved that car…do I think it’s worth what folks are paying today?..nope but I understand why they do. Currently I own a 993 Turbo and think that it’s a better car than the 94 but better doesn’t always mean it’s more desirable. Most if not all of these classics are emotional nostalgic buys, so some comments, statements or facts are not applicable for potential buyers and don’t necessarily have a place in an auction like BAT.

I have to agree. I wouldn't pay what i could sell my 3.6T for. Is it a fantastic ride yes but not a half a million dollar car. Although I am not impressed by the new machines that much either. I watched as my son trounced some very fast cars this weekend in his modified Cayman S. He was passing GT4RS's and other fast machines doing 2:07's with 2:09's in traffic at the Glen. He still prefers my 964 over any modern Porsche and drives everything working for Porsche.

I made some comments on the midnight 3.6T I saw up close at Amelia and if I didn't overhear the conversation and want to gag on the BS being spewed I wouldn't have said anything. The car is nice but no garage queen and hardly a well kept car. A lot was done to fix it up recently but I have friends with turbos they bought new tracked for 70k miles and look nicer in person.

I posted this response which I have no doubt will not get posted and get me banned again. I suspect they are allowing the seller to review it and opine on its content.

This listing amongst others were not on my radar. I was at Watkins Glen staring at the huge BAT banner in the paddock for an advanced HPDE watching my son drive the pants off his 981 cayman S outpacing others in their GT4RS’s and other much more powerful cars. It was too exciting leaving no time for anything else. 2:07’s at the Glen in a relatively stock cayman S with some aero is a site to behold. Very proud of his abilities.

With all due respect, I don’t see what contacting you will do. I know these cars as well as anyone inside and out. I work on many and restore them myself. What can you educate me on that I don’t already know? 964’s are my passion and specialty and have been a PCA member for over 40 years. An owner of 911’s since ’77.

It is common knowledge that the dark colors like Midnight, Amazon, black, etc had the lower portion of the rockers painted body color while the lighter colors like red, white, cobalt, mint, rubystone, etc were painted black. Look at the cars you have sold in the past and you will see what I am saying is true. Nothing that can’t be easily fixed if the new owner desires. I also have several well known friends that are restoration experts for PCA and Porsche. I know of many Midnight 3.6T’s and they all have the lower rockers painted body color some are all original paint cars. Metallics were all special order paints. I have copies of many window stickers from these cars, some dealers charged as much as $3k for the option others didn’t charge like mine and this one. I also have the factory brochures and documentation as do you so look it up and you will see what I am saying is true.

The flachbau that sold at Broad Arrow Amelia this year had the X90 option and the caps I am describing. If they had a third gen cap as you are saying then this one and many others didn’t get them.
https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/vehicles/am23_080/1994-porsche-911-turbo-s-flachbau. I have few friends original owners with the X90 polished cap option and theirs look like the ones above. They used a variation of this cap on the 993’s but the crest had black lettering instead of gold.

If you read the paperwork done in 2020 the shop stated that the clutch reservoir was left open for over a year and that the calipers were seized due to the environment and therefor repalced. I am confused by the contradiction and using a dash to prove its condition which is easily replaceable means nothing.

FYI The front calipers are under $1000 new from Porsche if you don’t pay retail.

I know Jim D and his work quite well. He has done several widened versions of these wheels for others I know. I helped him decades ago when he had problems initially with the polished centers on a friends set. We go back a long way. So they were refinished and sizes increased to 10,5″ and changed the offset to 56 vs the stock ET61 10″ width. No micrometer necessary as the size was never offered from the factory. I own every size made except for the 9,5″ rear cup wheels. I even have a very rare set of RSR factory 9 1/2″ RSR fronts 11″ rears on my RSR build. I agree whole heartedly Jim is the only person I would trust with refinishing speedlines. Prices have clearly gone up for his work and worth every penny but a new set can be purchased for $10,5k from the factory but wouldn’t be 10.5″ wide. FYI it is an acid etch not laser printing. Unless Jim changed his method.

I was actually there talking to my friend who presented the car next to the turbo while you were speaking with the owner. I couldn’t help but overhear most of your conversation since you were discussing my favorite car. I didn’t interject or realize who you were until after you had left and someone told me it was you. Otherwise I would have happily introduced myself. Although we met decades ago when I lived in La Jolla and test drove a 930. I had a brief conversation with the owner, I complimented him on his car as one 3.6T owner to another. He undoubtedly doesn’t remember me but I wouldn’t expect him too.

Glad your friend sold his for a profit back then. These pretty much stalled and plummeted in value to around mid $50k until 2007 when prices started to rise. My friend purchased his new off the floor after the 993 was introduced and bought it at a considerable discount to move it off the floor to make room for the incoming 993TT. It had <250 miles on it sold new as the owner of the dealer drove it occasionally.

The pics look as though it was a decent car to begin with and nothing to do with the factory paint being an issue just 30 year old car getting refreshed.

I never said it was a bad car just clarifying the obvious misconstrued facts.

regards,
GLWA

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I just love how they play up false facts and list things like seat belts as options to draw in people to think it is a heavily optioned car. The wheels, center caps and other things are incorrect and he will argue these points. The paint issues he is discussing are BS and the car was clearly a car that need a lot of TLC. So it is a nice car just not a half million dollar example he is trying to portray it as.

BTW after having a US spec cup car for a long while in my garage I have to say they are special. The added power lighter weight and short gearing with RS suspension is a huge improvement over stock. However my C2 with sunroof removed a few more pounds and MCS 2WNR suspension handles better than any RS i have driven irrespective of the seam welded tub. Although it took a long time to dial in.

After over 40 years of owning 911's I love them all and each has its own quirk but to me the 964 is the sweat spot of the air-cooled 911's and has everything needed to have a great time and can be customized to any specific need.

FYI I have worked on and been up close with several early singers and to pay anything over $400k for these old ones is just plain lunacy. The CF weave showing through and what looks like home made parts underneath are laughable but everyone loves them. For $400k and a 964 I can build one heck of a 964 with a nice 7200 rpm limit and more power than anyone needs in a car. They are nice but again not worth the buy in.

The issues with cabs and targas is the body flex. Nice cruisers but not serious drivers like the coupes. I still like them and would have one if I had more space. I missed on the cobalt AR which I see all the time and although I love my 981 GTS M I would happily cruise around in the AR.

Update they deleted my post. LOL

[Wayne Wallace]

First and foremost, I would say BAT was right to ban you for this. It may be your opinion which you are intitled to, but it is just rude and plain wrong to bash someone's ad to sell their car.

Secondly what you posted was not " an informative write up", it is merely your opinion and means nothing to many.

If you despise the 964 so much, then what are you doing following their sales ads?

Every generation of Porsche 911"s have had their problems as with rust on the older cars and even the 1980"s cars. They have on lining in the wheel wells and sling dirt and water it the wheel wells and cause bad rusting issues. My 1979 Turbo did this in the right front driver's fender well and caused the tub too rust between the fender and the tub area. The front trunk area has a huge hole when you remove the tank, these tubs are not very ridged, the 964 chassis is far superior in this regard. I have a 964 Turbo currently that is superior in almost every way to my 930. When I removed the wheel well liners it was like new beneath them. It has power steering and ABS brakes a much stiffer chassis, coil over suspension instead of the antiquated torsion bar suspension, no rubber center clutch. The dash and console are much more modern and don't look like a Volkswagen bug shifter, and an A/C system that actually works, the bottom of the car is so much more aerodynamic as are the bumpers, no tack on rubber accordion's.

People are paying huge money for 964 cars because they see and appreciate all the improvements in these cars. They are still classic air-cooled cars with much more modern features.

Lastly, I would say you are intitled to your opinion and it you don't like these cars fine, just don't buy one. But it is just rude to interfere with someone's ad to sell their car by posting this unwanted opinion.

I am curious as to why you would even do this, is it jealousy? Is it because you can't afford to pay current prices? Are you trying to save the poor ignorant people who can afford them and enjoy them from themselves? Why, who does it benefit? I would ad my 32,000 mile 964 has increased four times what I paid in 2008. Even given this fact I can't bring myself to sell it, it is not only the best car I have ever owned, it is the best Porsche I have ever owned!

[Matt Monson]

[Cobalt]

Well BaT is still a safe haven for unscrupulous sellers to take advantage of the uninitiated. Although the good news is most buyers have learned a lot from reading threads here and on rennlist. Some of the worst offenders are no longer trying to twist the facts as they were getting away with for so long so some good has come of it.

[cmpski]

I could care less about any Porsche after 1974. They're all heavy pigs. But I'm a fan of 914's and my warmed over 912. Who needs that big heavy 6 lump in the back when you can loose 60 to 85 pounds (mag or aluminum engine) behind the rear axles and have a two cam 4. New POLO's and Emory/Rothsports are now developed to make 210 to 260 hp NA and up to 400 hp turboed in sub 2200 pound cars. If I want a heavy GT car I'll drive a clean used BMW M2 Comp or a Cadillac ATS-V for less money than a clean SC or Carrera with twice the hp, good heat and ac. Sports cars should be under 1.1 ton. Any heavier is a GT (Grand Touring) car.

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by cmpski

I could care less about any Porsche after 1974. They're all heavy pigs. But I'm a fan of 914's and my warmed over 912. Who needs that big heavy 6 lump in the back when you can loose 60 to 85 pounds (mag or aluminum engine) behind the rear axles and have a two cam 4. New POLO's and Emory/Rothsports are now developed to make 210 to 260 hp NA and up to 400 hp turboed in sub 2200 pound cars. If I want a heavy GT car I'll drive a clean used BMW M2 Comp or a Cadillac ATS-V for less money than a clean SC or Carrera with twice the hp, good heat and ac. Sports cars should be under 1.1 ton. Any heavier is a GT (Grand Touring) car.

Lighten up. There are many air cooled cars that are great from 75-98.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Imma double down. What a useless conversation to start back up.

[pnut_lee]

My first road worthy Porsche was a 1984 Carrera Targa. Slate Blue Metallic with about 84,000 miles on it. Loved the car but didn’t care for Targas at the time. I couldn’t afford a coupe back then……

Targas have grown on me, and I think the Targa styling is best suited to the 964 body style. I don’t know what it is, but in my opinion it just works so much better than on the impact bumper cars. I’m sure many of you will disagree.

I now own a 964 Cabriolet. The cab, like the targa, is a blast to drive with the open air. Sights, sounds, fresh air………..just amazing in these cars. I just happen to prefer the lines of a coupe from an aesthetic point of view. I love the rear quarter windows. I love the shape of the full framed door. I Love everything about the coupes. I just can’t stomach what people are paying for them, so I went with a Cab for less than half price of an equivalent coupe. Case in point:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-porsche-911-carrera-2-coupe-40/

Tiptronic with over 100k miles on the clock, a poor repaint, cracked fuel gauge glass (how does this happen?), seat piping that is cracking, paint bubbling and corrosion around the windshield, aftermarket wheels, exhaust tip, wrong tail, 13 year old tires, no maintenance history. Almost $77k with buyers fee. Unless this car is a tear down for deep pocket hot rod build, I think the buyer is going to be quite disappointed. People have lost their minds. I’m looking for another 964 (coupe or targa) to accompany my 964 Cab in the garage, but I might abandon that plan for a 981 Cayman S or GTS. That is a lot of car for the money when compared to a 964. $77k buys a super low mileage, highly optioned 981 Cayman where it apparently gets you a 964 Tiptronic with lots of issues.

I think a lot of young folks are financing huge money on these cars thinking they will hold value or be long term investments (retirement funds). Kind of makes me wonder what happens when ICE vehicles are hit with huge annual registration taxes and/or fuel is taxed at $10 per gallon to incentivize people to go electric. It’s only a matter of time. I don’t think air cooled cars are the investments that some hope they will be. A lot is going to change in the next 20-30 years, and these things might be worthless by then……….

[Nick Triesch]

This reminds me when I was doing homework on which air cooled Porsche to buy my Porsche history books and reviews 30 years ago said stay away from the mid years. Horrible cars!!! Motors did not last!! Terrible problems! So after much reading I chose a 85 3.2 with motronic. My how things have changed. I believe because P cars cost so much now all air cooled cars are great cars. I’ll stick with the G body cars. My Porsche mechanic told me the 3.2 is the best engine Porsche ever made.

[Nick Triesch]

Cmpski, 914’s are really cute VW’s! Just rust a bit.

[Matt Monson]

914s are the ugliest VWs ever made. Can you imagine if they had made it more curvy like a Ghia? I love them, but it’s like a kid drew the car’s line with a ruler. Not at all organic.