Value of 1970 911S coupe project

[techweenie]

I've been presented with two 1970 S coupe projects -- both non-sunroof, both substantially apart -- by owners wanting to sell.

One has been repainted to a high standard and needs primarily mechanical and interior reassembly.

The other needs paint and total reassembly.

I figure the market for a nicely done 2.2 S coupe is $90-110K today. I would expect car #1 needs $30K spent on it; car #2 needs $45K spent on it. Leave 20% on the table for the unknowns of a project... and there's your pricing.

I know the market for longhood Ts extremely well. I do not know the market for Ss at all. Would appreciate input from people who have bought/sold longhood Ss in the past year.

[Macroni]

Tech,
I think it takes very special cars to get into the 90k+ range. I would aim more realistically at 65K through 70K for a restored car. To me, if they are complete I would place them in the $25,000 range. This is depending upon details such as tool kits and documentation.

Luke

[fryardds]

Are these projects complete with matching engines? What is the condition of each engine? If they are matching, all or most of the parts are present (AL engine lid), with good exterior colors and options like sport seats, etc.

I would think a finished to a high standard 2.2s coupe would be a little higher than what Luke states. Maybe $80 to 90K. The price will climb from there if there is really good history and documents.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I don't know much about valuation, but I know what's important to me and what I think effects value (not necessarily in any order):

How much of the car is original vs. factory replacement vs. repro
Quality of any part of the restoration (who did what)
Matching numbers engine, MFI and 901
date-matched Fuchs, all 5
oil system including front cooler
Color combo
Toolkit
any special options, special build characteristics
Paperwork, from sticker to present


Without knowing those points, it's hard to place a real value, but if these are essentially original cars that started/need to start restoration, I think Luke's $25K is a good start. If pieced together, e.g., 2/3 different MM/YY Fuchs, used MFI needing rebuild, purchased to replace Webers that some PO did in 1982, etc., then the number starts going down.

[techweenie]

Thanks guys, I respect all your opinions, though I think $25K is closer to what a 'nice driver' T with no needs/minor wants is bringing.

I will grant you that the buyer of a project S is rare.

But I think a lot depends on where the prospect thinks the market is headed. With RSs hitting up to $400K and Ss I've seen quietly selling into the $100K range, I think we may see the day that all nicely restored, unrusted, unhit Ss start at $100K and go up.

Both of these projects are based on super clean, undamaged, unrusted sheetmetal and top tier restoration has been initiated. Books, records and toolkits present.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Thanks guys, I respect all your opinions, though I think $25K is closer to what a 'nice driver' T with no needs/minor wants is bringing.

I will grant you that the buyer of a project S is rare.

But I think a lot depends on where the prospect thinks the market is headed. With RSs hitting up to $400K and Ss I've seen quietly selling into the $100K range, I think we may see the day that all nicely restored, unrusted, unhit Ss start at $100K and go up.

Both of these projects are based on super clean, undamaged, unrusted sheetmetal and top tier restoration has been initiated. Books, records and toolkits present.

Books, records and toolkits tell the story..... I just would not underestimate the restoration cost. Though your budget of $75,000 + 20% contingency to complete both sounds sufficient.

In my opinion your's and Brian's comments are a bit bullish but and I like that!

[Macroni]

Porsche 911 2.2 S - Auction 2/10 For Sale by Auction (1970) on Car And Classic UK
$43,000 to $53,000

VERY ORIGINAL 911S 2.2 ! Really rare For Sale (1970) on Car And Classic UK

$88,000

[techweenie]

Good data points. Driver @ $43-53K? Hard to know, but I think a driver here might be similarly priced. Lots of unknowns.

The $88K original seems like a pretty good deal as described, at least judging by recent sales I know of. I wonder if my pricing research is skewed by being in the southwest corner of the US, where the top end cars can be exceptionally clean and undisturbed.

[techweenie]

One additional note: a project car that's apart and media blasted can be a better deal for a restorer than a driver. It's not hiding anything under paint or undercoating. And a lot of legwork has been done. Not every restorer is going to go balls-out, so a driver can be appealing just from the logistics aspect if the buyer just wants a nicer car, and not a show car. Different strokes.

[WANNA930]

The part of the market right now hurt the most is projects especially those that are part done. You look at a $20k project and then a very nice driver for say $55-65 and think there is no way I am going to get there for that money.

Remember the $100k cars have $25k in paint and probably that much in drivetrain. Then what everybody forgets is about at least that much in the little stuff.

A dreamer would buy an already painted car otherwise it just does not make sense to invest that much not knowing exactly what is under that finish.

Then there is the group that just loves to do it themselves exactly like they want. to them a project is gold. Find the right buyer if it is a correct car and it will sell.

Good luck and if it was an odd color I would be calling you.

Brian

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by WANNA930

The part of the market right now hurt the most is projects especially those that are part done. You look at a $20k project and then a very nice driver for say $55-65 and think there is no way I am going to get there for that money.

Brian

Yes, that's the Logic Angel standing on your left shoulder. On your right is the Emotional Angel saying: I could do that whole thing to my own standards using my favorite vendors... and it wouldn't cost all that much. Every car fan should listen to that Emotional Angel at least once.

[fryardds]

That's funny I thought the little creature on the right side was a little Emotion demon not angel.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by fryardds

That's funny I thought the little creature on the right side was a little Emotion demon not angel.

You are correct, sir. Once you have listened to that bugger, you realize it's a demon.
:-0

[Macroni]

Porsche : 911: eBay Motors (item 200518282245 end time Oct-01-10 18:30:00 PDT)


If this sells for $48K I will be very surprised.

[Macroni]

Porsche : 911: eBay Motors (item 200519661555 end time Sep-27-10 13:00:00 PDT)

I know it is a 73 but it is in much nicer condition than the Targa........

[techweenie]

Getting more info on the project cars. Huge price disparity between them. Maybe partially because the pricier one is Conda Green, and the less-pricey is Sepia Brown. But $50K vs. $35K!

One wonders when (in another thread) someone is asking $149K for a US Carrera, and some lesser cars have actually sold in the $60K range, if the 2.2S cars might be decent investments(?)

Or have the 'S' cars peaked?

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Or have the 'S' cars peaked?

Techweenie.... you are Techweenie.... is this really a question or are you just pondering outloud..........

[techweenie]

I am completely confused by how strongly people are bidding up US Carreras ('74-75).

And in that context, wondering how a 2.2S isn't worth at least twice as much -- apples to apples.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by techweenie

I am completely confused by how strongly people are bidding up US Carreras ('74-75).

Techweenie Techweenie let me help you w/ this one.......
I am a fan of those cars.... flat out. I would prefer a euro version but I am always too slow on the draw.

The US version are trading in the $35,000+/- range, beautiful NC sepia brown and Peru red as financial reference points.
1975 911 Carrera
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36011

There is a yellow one on ebay out of Pa that has been there for at least a month w/o a buyer.
Porsche : 911: eBay Motors (item 300440616405 end time Oct-22-10 14:58:33 PDT)

A bahama blue one in NY has been available for an extended period
Porsche : 911: eBay Motors (item 230531471681 end time Oct-18-10 13:20:17 PDT)

as well as a very nice Gulf Blue
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

The last three are priced at $50,000 or above (and not selling).

Given that the euros trade between $65,000 and $80,000;
FS: ROW '74 911 on Ebay - Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board

and a 911/83 motor is worth $25,000 (major difference between the two versions), this should give the US version a value of $30,000 to $45,000.


I wish I was so thorough in high school.............

[techweenie]

Last year I was offered a Peru Red '75 for $10K (needed cosmetics) and passed. The year before, I tried to sell a super nice low mile '75 from a collection and couldn't get a single offer at asking $35K. So it's my opinion buyers are fewer and farther between than 'S' buyers.

I don't relate these to the 'real' Carreras in any way. These are dressed up 2.7 S cars with all the attendant sturm and drang.

They have approximately a +160 lb. weight penalty over the '72/73 cars.

I probably should mention that I owned one. Dropped a 3.2 in it. Liked the result.

But back to the market: are there really bidders/buyers for these? Did the Gulf Blue car on eBay get to $59K by real bidding?