Considering a 1971 911T- pitfalls, issues, concerns?

[Dogbreath]

I am considering the purchase of the 1971 Porsche 911T pictured below.

The odometer says 73K...I am not sure if it is correct or if it works.
The interior is original but appears decent and intact.
The body seems straight but the paint is cracked and there are several spots of previous poorly done repairs and some light surface rust in places.
The floor pans look good but there is light rust on the under carriage (see photos)
The is pretty much no documentation and the car has been stored for a number of years.

The engine is a 2.2 and is out of the car and completely disassembled. It appears to be the engine that came with the car. The purchase of the car is "as is" and the engine will come in a few boxes I assume. The heads have been done and some cleaning has been done.

My questions...what would be some of the greatest concerns and potential expenses associated with getting this car to be a decent driver?

Just seeking advice about how much one should pay for such a car/project?

I am definitely interested in a project car but not sure whether this is too much to bite off.
Thanks

Please see photos at this link. I was unable to upload photos tonight for some reason.

https://picasaweb.google.com/jamdofal/May32012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNT63JXc1-r2GA&feat=directlink

[Macroni]

The car looks in excellent shape w/ minimal required restoration and I would question doing anymore than spot repairs as required, strong cleaning compound and wax. Originality is premium with long hoods. Putting $12,000 aside for the motor and miscellaneous sorting. This car would be a very good purchase at $12,000 to $15,000. This would give you an all in at $24,000 to $27,000 which is on the low side of the current T market ($30,000 +/-).

I am viewing through the internet but this car appears that it does not need much and its originality is a big plus. The shape of the interior indicates it was a cared for car and I would venture it is more likely a 7X,XXX mile car vs. a 17X,XXX mile car. Find an original radio and enter it in your local PCA events as a survivor. You will take home the awards with its classic simplicity and originality.

Good luck!

[coldstart]

I agree with Macroni that the car looks pretty good from the pictures (minus the engine). Obviously, pictures can be deceiving and your description makes the car sound a little more tired-- especially since the car is parked in a field!

Rust is the main pitfall but restoration/parts can be extremely expensive.

You should also confirm that the engine case matches the chasis. The engine will likely cost $6-10K to put back to new as the earlier cases required machining. This is also dependant whether all the parts are present, there are no out of ordinary problems and how far you want to go with the restoration. You may consider revitalizing the suspension now as well.

I would say that the not-running car is worth $10K as it is much harder to sell. The seller would have to find a Porsche enthusiast with vision (and time and money!).

I highly recommend buying it if you can afford a 40-year old money pit! It will be worth it in the end!

[Macroni]

TheSamba.com :: VW Classifieds - 1972 Porsche 911 T Targa Rust Free Rolling Shell

Here is a representation of the current insane market for a T

[76_rookie]

Those guys at porforauto are smoking something good. See if someone wants to pay $9500 for that shell.

[Dogbreath]

Thanks a lot for the responses. They help a lot.
The seller is asking at the top of your recommended range so I will have to see if he has any room.
It seems like it could be a fun project. I just hope the value of these cars stays up.

[GothingNC]

That does look like a clean speciman provided there is no hidden rust/bondo.


Good luck

[PropellerHead]

I would say this is a fine project starting point! If the engine is original (#'s), and the car is without 'free rust' you would have a very nice driver.

Costs can get scary with regards to engines for these. Figure $5k for the most basic re-build doing most of the labor yourself. For that, you can probably buy a running engine to plug-in and keep the original as a 'rebuildable core' so that originality is maintained.

To properly re-paint one of these cars is an expensive undertaking and if done cheaply can actually detract from the value of the car. If it is free of bondo/rust, this is a good value at $15k in my view. For reference, I bought a non-running (but 100% complete and mostly original just hadn't been run in ~8 years) '71 911T non-sunroof coupe a few years back from a private party for less than the value range quoted here. To get it running and bring it back as a good driver with tasteful updates/upgrades was another $6k on top of the purchase price. That was without an engine rebuild. I could have spent less but I wanted a few upgrades for my purposes.

I say buy-it if you have a mechanic's bone in your body!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Dogbreath

It seems like it could be a fun project. I just hope the value of these cars stays up.

Stays up is a time sensitive concept. In the long haul, even T's are going to be 6 figure cars in concours condition. 5 years ago when the long nose market heated up people went crazy.

Then the stock market crashed and some cash poor people had to dump their toys into the pool. The pricing took a temporary hit for a couple of years. Many here and elsewhere were screaming that the sky is falling the sky is falling. I think those were mostly uneducated buyers who were buying cars on the up trying to flip for a profit. They got left holding the bag in the same way that a lot of people lost value on their stock portfolios.

So, we could have enough economic downturn in 2-3 years that hiccups the prices of these cars back down temporarily. But if we look 10, 15, or 20 years down the line? They are only going up...

[PropellerHead]

The 911 is one of the most iconic cars in history. Production numbers for early cars (yes, even the 'T' models) are quite low and the cars are still loads of fun to drive. This bodes well for values to stay strong and increase over time.

Like everything else, originality and condition will separate the values between the top market cars and the average. Poor condition will always suffer.

[blau911]

$12,000 for a rebuild on this car's motor is too high. $12k would include removal and tear down which has already been done. In addition, if you have any decent knowledge of 911 motors you should be able to inspect the parts and see what machine work needs to be done (i.e resurfacing cams, crank, valves, valve seats etc..) Tranny is missing as well. Is that with the car? If not, add on another $1500-2500. for a good one.
The body looks nice, but based upon the few photos, it is hard to tell to what extent if any there are rust issues. Look at the trunk area closely with the carpet and spare removed, especially the front pan, the smugglers box, the batterie boxes. Get a closer look at the door jams, pull up the rubber seal around the trunk lid and see what if any rust is there. If this car has been anywhere but Arizona, there is sure to be or have been some rust somewhere. One of the photos of the passenger side door shows that there is substantial peeling of paint behind the passenger door handle. Is that surface rust?
As regards value, a nice 2.2T coupe matching numbers, original colors, good running condition is worth $30k+ now. Motor, tranny rebuilds, and a good paint job could easily set you back $15k.
So if the seller is looking for $15k, you are most likely looking at spending a total of $30k to make the car nice - and that does not include your time and effort...

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by blau911

$12,000 for a rebuild on this car's motor is too high

Blau,

I will grant you it is always cheaper to do it yourself if skill and the opportunity cost of time are not the issue. Reality of a professional rebuild is $12,000 might be considered conservative. This is based upon experience.

These are forty year old mechanical appliances. They have wear from prior use and even parked components deteriorate due to the elements. When purchasing a car like this all mechanical systems would be suspect. This includes suspension, brakes, fuel system, exhaust, transmission, pedal clusters, shifter, trans and motor mounts, heater controls, windshield wiper and washer. This does not include electric issues you might stumble upon. Again these are all tasks that can be completed DIY but the minute you bring in a pro these all become pricey repairs.

My experience has taught me the cost of sorting. When I restored my S it cost much more than I anticipated. Much of it was getting the car to operate as the factory intended. The balance was for getting the car set to my requirements. This process cost well over $12,000.

[GothingNC]

I zoomed up on the photo and it does look like missing paint by the door handle.

Also need to consider rebuiling the brake system and suspension.

Interior looks nice, are the seats, carpet and headliner dry-rotted?

Any more photos?

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by Macroni

These are forty year old mechanical appliances. They have wear from prior use and even parked components deteriorate due to the elements. When purchasing a car like this all mechanical systems would be suspect. This includes suspension, brakes, fuel system, exhaust, transmission, pedal clusters, shifter, trans and motor mounts, heater controls, windshield wiper and washer. This does not include electric issues you might stumble upon. Again these are all tasks that can be completed DIY but the minute you bring in a pro these all become pricey repairs.

Very true. I spent countless hours sorting, repairing, restoring, cleaning on my '71T to get it to a very nice driver level car. And I haven't done body work or an engine rebuild with it. It was an original 'survivor' car with low miles and was complete and correct. It wasn't a 'basket case' car by any means.
Pedal cluster rebuild, shifter rebuild, hand throttle and ebrake sorting, brake system, charging system, suspension bushings, points/rotor/cap/plugs, rebuild carbs, remove and clean fuel tank, replace fuel lines, brake lines, etc., etc. These things were on a car with only ~53k miles (documented and accurate). Sitting is not good for these cars. That's why I drive it on a regular basis!
It will need tires and countless little things which add up to a substantial sum just to get the car functioning as originally intended. That's without upgrades or cosmetic repairs/restoration of items you will undoubtedly want to do to make it 'nice'.

This is not to discourage you from the project - it is very rewarding and can be done over time. I've enjoyed mine and it isn't complete yet. I've tracked expenditures from day one and I've nearly doubled my initial purchase price but half of that was optional 'upgrades'. No labor has been outsourced though, all DIY.

Here is the story of my work on my '71T coupe. Start at the beginning (2010) and you'll recognize this was a solid starting point. It will give you an idea of what you're in for bringing a sitting 'project' back to life. Add to it the cost/time of even a basic engine build (which I'll point you to another Pelican's blog below) to your calculations.

911T Times

Here's Mike's blog which has some engine build details among other things like gearbox, interior and paint & body work. He may have also detailed the engine build in a thread here on Pelican:

Mike and Katie's 911 restoration project

[GothingNC]

Awesome Blog Links Chet, thanks !!!