Wheel options 70-73 narrow body 911

[Sporttracguy]

Hi all, I've been cruising around this great site for a few years now and after searching for hours I need to post a question.

I have a 1970 911E and it's running the stock "comfort package" wheels (14" x 5.5") The wheels don't have the safety bead so I have to run tubed tires and this has been cause for several flat tires and awful lateral sway. The small diameter is also extremely limiting when it comes to brake upgrades....

I'm curious what options I have for upgrading rims. I don't necessarily want to go factory with some larger fuchs, although that may be what ends up happening. What other options do I have? I know that the early 911 had a difficult bolt pattern and offset so what can I do? I'm looking at something in a 16"

Thanks,

Ryan

[911Freak]

Anymore specifics on your 911? (color, Coupe or Targa, stock, pics etc)

May be a dumb question on my part but are your hubs different than 5 X 130?

Thanks

[Sporttracguy]

As far as I know everything is stock on the car. Its a red (not sure what shade) 911E coupe. It has 84K original miles.




Ryan

[911Freak]

Have you seen a similar year/model 911 with wheels that give the car a look that you like?


I think these early 911's look perfect with the 15" fuchs, with polished petals!

I'm sure some guys will chime in with the aesthetic options, however, is there a performance issue your looking to address? (upgraded calipers etc)

[pwd72s]

"comfort package" usually meant the hydropneumatic suspension...has your car been converted to torsion bars?

If you want to go to better brakes, you will need the "S" struts with the proper mounting spacing for bigger brakes. There are several ways to go, but you'll need those struts...

Wheels are a taste thing...16" will give you more tire options, but 15" look pretty cool.

[Sigurd]

I just installed a set of 6 x 15 Minilites on mine Oxford Blue. I think it looks good.

[Grady Clay]

Ryan,

The original “S” wheels are Fuchs 6Jx15 with 185/70VR15 tires. The ‘deep dish’ version from ’69-’71 do not have the ‘safety bead’ These are also now difficult to find and expensive.

The similar 6Jx15 Fuchs from ’71 through ’77 has the safety bead and is commonly available. Even perfect examples can be found at reasonable prices. Originally these came with 185/70VR15 but today it is common to use 195/60-15 tires.

You can fit a 7Jx15 and 205/55-15 to the rear if you are very careful.


The easiest and least expensive choice are the 6Jx16 Fuchs common on the front of 911SC and later. There are many ‘like new’ available. It is common for them to have been stored in garages with the rear 7Jx16 moved to the front and new 8Jx16 installed on the rear.

This wheel, with a 205/55-16 will fit on all four and will fit as spare. If your 911 sits low, you may need to pay attention to the front fender lip about 8” up in the front. Many cars (even with OE set-up) can have a new tire snag the lip.

There is far greater selection of appropriate tires with 16” diameter than there are for 15” wheels.

It is possible to fit a 7Jx16 and 225/50-16 in the rear. To do this, you need stiff springs to limit wheel travel and compromise alignment (2°+ negative camber) and consequent inside tire wear. There were sufficient differences in body position that this may not be a choice.



I hope you have stored away your “Comfort Package” for posterity. If not, I encourage you to do so. It will make a nice ‘wall hanging’ object d’art for your garage.

The details are important. With some preparation, this is an easy Saturday DIY project. Some is normal every 40-year maintenance, regardless of mileage.

Starting in 1970, when Porsche installed the Comfort Package they used 911E-only suspension components. These were the regular 911T/911S parts but partially completed. In particular, they were the front suspension cross member that supports the two A-arms and the steering rack and the two A-arms. The ends of the cross member lacked the provision for supporting the torsion bar lever. The A-arms lacked the splines for a torsion bar and the lower part of the structure out to the ball joint. The first thing to do is determine if you have these original parts or they are changed to the T/S parts.

Not installed were the torsion bars, adjusting screw, foam seal and lever arm. Of course all these came with the ‘self-leveling’ hydropneumatic struts. The common joke was they self-leveled collapsed on the rubber bump stops.

The good news is all these came with the aluminum caliper 911S brakes. These use the 3.5” support spacing struts.



I can see your garage wall with five 5½x14 Fuchs with 185-14 tires and a complete front suspension.

We can expand this thread as a “how to” for a Saturday conversion project if necessary.

Best,
Grady

[Sporttracguy]

Thanks Grady, that was a good overview on my situation.

After doing some research I found that the front suspension was upgraded with T components. The car originally belonged to my grandfather and I found that he fell asleep at the wheel one night when he was on call (doctor) and ended up damaging the front suspension when he ran it off the road. The front suspension was upgraded at that point and then promptly put into storage for 15 years or so. Last summer I pulled it out and had the engine and seals worked over, it still had the original tires so I replaced them and installed new tubes.


Ryan

[fbarrett]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Starting in 1970, when Porsche installed the Comfort Package they used 911E-only suspension components. These were the regular 911T/911S parts but partially completed. In particular, they were the front suspension cross member that supports the two A-arms and the steering rack and the two A-arms. The ends of the cross member lacked the provision for supporting the torsion bar lever. The A-arms lacked the splines for a torsion bar and the lower part of the structure out to the ball joint. The first thing to do is determine if you have these original parts or they are changed to the T/S parts.

Not installed were the torsion bars, adjusting screw, foam seal and lever arm. Of course all these came with the ‘self-leveling’ hydropneumatic struts. The common joke was they self-leveled collapsed on the rubber bump stops.

Grady

Grady:

I hereby claim the long-distance record for driving a 911E on the front bump stops. In 1973, I drove my future wife Anne's 1970 911E from Louisville, Kentucky, to Denver that way. Even got a speeding ticket in Nebraska. Then I replaced the hydropneumatic set-up with conventional bits. Today the car remains alive and well with Richard W in the Cincinnati area.

Frank

[Grady Clay]

Frank,

Is this you and the ‘E’ that I’m chasing at Woody Creek in Aspen?
I think this is about ’73.




Sorry for the OT digression.

Best,
Grady

[fbarrett]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Frank,

Is this you and the ‘E’ that I’m chasing at Woody Creek in Aspen?
I think this is about ’73.

Grady

Grady:

Not quite: our '70 E had no front bumper guards. This car has black trim around the turn-signal lenses; the driver's side mirror and the bumper guard pads are later, too, so it's probably a '72.

Frank

[Grady Clay]

Frank,

The license plate is PT-4727 and expires June ‘74.
The original photograph is B&W so I can’t tell color.
It has H1s and an ‘S’ bumper. I see a ’72 oil door in the original.
Could this be Susan S’s Viper Green ’72 911S?

Best,
Grady

[fbarrett]

Grady:

Yes, I think so. John Dwyer would know!

Frank

[Grady Clay]

Back OnToppic.

This Polaroid from about 1970 is what I was looking for when Frank and I got distracted.



Here is the set of suspension conversion pieces.
The lower image are the original 911E parts. Note the hydropneumatic struts. You can also see the non-torsion bar ends of the cross member.

The upper part are the new replacement parts. It was not inexpensive to change from 911E to 911S front suspension.

Best,
Grady.

[JerryL]

+1 on Grady's sugestion on 6 x 16's plenty available and can be made to look like the early alloy with some help from Al Reed. I have a 71 911 Targa that I picked up in the early winter with the 5.5 x 14's, they just looked a bit anemic. It should be comming off the jack stands in a week or 2 getting the 6 x 16 (although black at this time)
I have the 6 x 16's w/ the 205 55 on a 66 coupe as well, couple pics attached.
Am running 16mm spacer in front to stay off inner wheel well / tub and had to roll the rear lip. Great ride,

Oh Grady, thanks to your post on the 70 - 71 trans / clutch system y.day was going over mine as I did not remove it and could not figure out the deal on the end of the cable, searched your posts as directed and found it (475 of 500+) but refrenced picks were there and now done other than waiting for the rubber boot

Regards

[SandyI]

On my 911E, I run 15X6 deep dish Fuchs for the street with 195 tires on them.

I use 15x7 Porsche Cookie Cutter wheels for the track with 205's.

Still have one original 14" Fuch as my spare with a new tire on it. But no tube.

You can get more opinions on this question from the wheel/tire experts on the early 911S registry site.

Good luck.

[Scooter]

Ryan,

What are your plans for the car? Why do you feel that you need "better" brakes? I would encourage you to leave your car as stock as possible, with stock wheels, unless you have completely different plans for the car. Value wise, your car should be worth more stock than modified. Unless you are tracking the car, I think your stock brakes are just fine, if they are in good working order. If you feel they are lacking, you may need to rebuild the calipers. As far as the tubes, I wonder if there is something you could inject in the tubes to stop flats (i.e. slime or other products).

BTW: Your car looks great as is.

[Sporttracguy]

Scooter,

The car is not a daily driver by any means, I take it out on nice days (here in Washington we only get a few of those) and although I agree that keeping the car as stock as I can is a good idea I also think that there are some modern upgrades that the car can benefit from. Upgrading from tubed tires to a lower profile radial and upgraded brakes to match is one way to hop up the performance while not doing anything irreversible to the vehicle.

The brakes are in need of replacement anyway (since the car had been sitting for years) and I figure if I'm going to replace them I might as well replace them with a better performing product.

My two main reasons for replacing my wheels are reliability and performance and the tubed tires that I have to run are neither reliable or performance oriented. I also figure if I can upgrade the look of the car then even better.

Im not entirely sure what im looking for as of yet. Im thinking something with a black center and chrome or brushed lip

The minilite is also growing on me but I would like something in a 16"


Thanks,
Ryan

[JerryL]

The Mini Light is a great look, there are some that are made in Austrailia I think it was, there was a guy next to our spot in Hershey this year with a set with tires (in 16") that came close to making me part with the $$$ even with having a set of Fuchs in 16 x 6 with new tires on them at the house. Pricing was very reasonable, dont remember the name but I would think btw here or Google you can find them. And as you know there is always the black Fuchs and you can polish the lips.

Good luck and I like your plan, if something needs repair / replacement why not up grade, and no matter what some will say, if you shop your 14's around you can get decent $$ for them, I sold mine at Hershey this year.

Regards

[Grady Clay]

I’ll encourage you to stick with Fuchs. That forging is probably the best made wheel in the world – and it is original Porsche.

For show and originality, the early (‘deep’) 6x15 is the technically correct best wheel. In fact you can sneak a 911R 7x15 under the rear and appear the same (Hester). The issue is these are non-safety bead wheels. They will, however accept most tubeless tires. The issue is proper bead sealing (clean wheel & proper installation) and the valve stem (the metal/rubber ones work great). As I said above, this can be expensive.

I’ll still recommend the later (‘flat’) 6x15 or the 6x16 Fuchs as the practical solutions.


You said that there were ‘T’ brakes installed when your 911E was repaired. Can you take pictures of the front calipers? Please also measure the bolt spacing of the caliper to the strut. This is an ‘inch’ measurement. The possibilities are either 3.0” or 3.5”.

One goal may be to restore the 911E/S aluminum caliper brakes in this process.

I want you to confirm that you have the ’72-> wedge-pin type attachment between the ball joint and strut. The original ‘pinch-bolt’ attachment was defective and (IMHO) should have been subject of an official recall.

Most important, you are going to want to replace the master cylinder with new and replace all four rubber flex hoses in the brake system. Cycling the pistons in the calipers will tell you if any further service is necessary to the calipers. I would only have them rebuilt if necessary.

The ‘while-you-are-there’ items are shocks, wheel bearings & seals, tie rod ends, ball joints, suspension bushing condition and alignment. Many items simply should be replaced due to age, not necessarily mileage.

Best,
Grady