3.2 to 3.5L - It's finally started!!!

[Carrera3.5L]

Well,

Summer is unofficially over in Southern California and it's now time to take the 3.2L motor out of the car for the performance rebuild. The motor has 88K on it and is being rebuilt due to one or more bad valve guides. Will know soon enough how many are bad (or even if the problem is the guides!!!). Car has intermittent blue smoke at idle (not start-up). Will go for a couple of weeks without smoking and than for a day or two spews blue clouds of smoke at a light. My guess is that the valve stem seal is moving around, which is why the smoke is so intermittent. Oil consumption is still 1,400 miles a quart which is acceptable.

The car was on the dyno (Dynojet) today to get a baseline for the performance improvements to follow. With a Steve Wong chip, Dansk premuffler and Dansk 2 out muffler, the motor made 3 runs total. The first run saw 197 rwhp and the two subsequent runs saw 198 rwhp. All numbers were SAE corrected. Max torque was 182. Seems to be in the ballpark what other people are getting with the same/similar mods. Kudos to the gentlemen who got 219 rwhp with similar mods. I'm not even close but I guarantee I will surpass that with the new motor!

We than took the motor out this afternoon, transported it to my buddie's machine shop and placed it on the engine stand. Tomorrow I will remove the exhaust, the Motronic injection and see how far I can get into the longblock. Bear in mind that my friend and I are doing this after hours.

This will also take alot longer than normal because I am writing a series of articles for European Car Magazine detailing the build and options that are available to SC and Carrera owners. Basically every thing I do I have to stop and take pictures, both for possible publishing for the magazine as well as for my own documentation.

What did we find while removing the motor? The first thing we noticed that will need replacing is the clutch slave cylinder. There is a small whole in the rubber boot that pisses fluid when squeezing it. Next thing I found is when the rear swaybar was being removed one of the rear swaybar mounts is beginning to crack. They are the original mounts as far as I know, but they are also the reinforced versions. Last, after removing the transaxle from the motor, it looks like the main seal is beginning to weep as well. Everything else external seems to be in good shape, we'll see what things look like internally in the next few days.

The 3.5L motor has the following specs:

100mm Mahle Piston & Cylinders (MI/Carb Piston shape)
10:1 - 10.3:1 CR (goal)
993 Twin Plug Distributor with ANDIAL Motronic Signal Splitter
ARP Head Studs
ARP Rod Bolts
Web Cam 20/21 Camshafts
AASCO Performance Valve Springs
Extrude Honed Intake Plenums
Bored out Throttle Body
Magnecore 8.5mm Twin Plug Wire Set
Boattailed Engine Case
Polished (not ported) Heads
European Racing Headers by George Narbel
Dansk 2 in 2 out Stainless Muffler
Custom Steve Wong Chip for Twin-Ignition
Hardware/Sheet Metal powdercoated, cad plated, etc, etc

The motor is destined for street use with limited track days and thus will retain the std. Motronic and will run using our pathetic 91 octane available in California. Other than the headers (which the stock heat exchangers can easily be refitted in a couple of hours), the motor will be CA smog legal. The heat will be gone but the a/c will be retained (the wife will drive the car from time to time and she insists).

I will post some pics from time to time as things progress but I also have an agreement with the magazine and thus they have first rights for publication. I can only post pics that won't be used for publication. Since the "before" and "after" dyno charts will be published, I can't post the "before" dyno graph from today. Since I am also doing this afterhours, I can't spend a bunch of time on the computer loading images. Posting progress for the most part will have to do.

I know some of you are probably saying to yourselves why bother with a 3.5L from a 3.2L when you can just transplant a 3.6. The answer is two fold: I wanted the original engine case for the car and the cost for me to build this motor is WAY WAY less than sourcing a used 3.6L and conversion pieces. Thanks to European Car Magazine for helping to make this happen.

Special thanks to Vision Motorsports in Laguna Hills, CA for dyno time, engine removal and storage of the car for the next few weeks/months.

The goal for the project is 280 FLYWHEEL horsepower, or 238 rwhp if you use the 15% driveline loss that everyone seems to use. Why 280? Because with 3.5L, that is 80 horsepower per litre which is approximately what Porsche's most powerful street engines put out. The 87-89 Carrera only puts out 67.8, but the 2.7 RS puts out 77.78 and a 3.6 Varioram puts out 79.17. If I can get in the same ballpark as the latter two I will be quite pleased. Will provide plenty of punch even for my 2800 lb. Carrera.

Will I get there???

Ralph

[Jeff Alton]

Cool project!! Good luck and keep us posted!!

Cheers, Jeff

[Craig 930 RS]

Smart build sheet and great starting motor; I'd guess 250 at the rear wheels when she's all done!

[Randy Webb]

re "Boattailed ... " I don't see the benefit for this spendy procedure. You are not going to run near redline very much ..... and you have a dry sump.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
re "Boattailed ... " I don't see the benefit for this spendy procedure. You are not going to run near redline very much ..... and you have a dry sump.

Ahh, this is true and yes it can be an expensive endeavor. Fortunately, it doesn't cost me anything to do it so why not? My motor is not a race motor, but we always gained a few horsepower at the top end by doing it with race motors when at Andial. I wouldn't spend $300-$350 to do it but when you have friends in the right places...

Here are some pics from today:



On the dyno!



Strapped down ready to go!



El Pollo Loco lunch at Vision



3.2L ready to be removed



On the ground!

That's it for today, the thing is a grimey mess! Will have to spend some time in the engine bay cleaning everything up as well as making a nice bracket to hold the 2nd coil.

[89911]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
Well,

The 3.5L motor has the following specs:

100mm Mahle Piston & Cylinders (MI/Carb Piston shape)
10:1 - 10.3:1 CR (goal)
993 Twin Plug Distributor with ANDIAL Motronic Signal Splitter
ARP Head Studs
ARP Rod Bolts
Web Cam 20/21 Camshafts
AASCO Performance Valve Springs
Extrude Honed Intake Plenums
Bored out Throttle Body
Magnecore 8.5mm Twin Plug Wire Set
Boattailed Engine Case
Polished (not ported) Heads
European Racing Headers by George Narbel
Dansk 2 in 2 out Stainless Muffler
Custom Steve Wong Chip for Twin-Ignition
Hardware/Sheet Metal powdercoated, cad plated, etc, etc

Ralph

Ralph, my car has exactly everything you mentioned except for 3.4l Mahles. It has done 230 at the wheels with still more room to go. Your estimates are conservative and I would expect possible 240-250rwhp, especially since you have the local abilities of Steve Wong to dial you in. The headers are going to help also. How about taking some of the money your saving and putting it in your transmission. I regeared 3rd through 5th to match the peak torque curves of my car. It is a thing of beauty to be short shifting you car all the way to 5th and not see your rev's drop below 4000. Hopefully yours will get done sooner then mine. I dropped mine off at my mechanics the first of the year and my car wasn't running until June.

[KobaltBlau]

same cams, 89911?

Pretty car, Ralph!

[89911]

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
same cams, 89911?

Pretty car, Ralph!

Yep. 20/21. I still have a maf that I was running, but it is easier for chip tuning to stick with the stock intake. Also had the flywheel lightened for quicker throttle response.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by 89911
How about taking some of the money your saving and putting it in your transmission. I regeared 3rd through 5th to match the peak torque curves of my car. It is a thing of beauty to be short shifting you car all the way to 5th and not see you rev's drop below 4000. Hopefully yours will get done sooner then mine. I dropped mine off at my mechanics the first of the year and my car wasn't running until June.

I really am unsure if I will make that power using the Motronic, mild cams and 91 octane. It is a goal to shoot for though. Since you are on the east coast, are you using 93 octane? What CR do you have? I think I can run 10.3 max without a problem on 91 in warm SoCal. This is the main reason as to why I waited until the weather starts to cool down (even though it is in the 90's right now) because I am unsure about thermal limits. The motor will no doubt run hotter and I don't plan on upgrading the stock oil cooler with fan right now. Another reason to run headers, it should also run a bit cooler as well and any little bit will help.

I really would love to change a couple of ratios but it is going to have to wait until next time. The transaxle is another "while you're in there" and a few ratios ends up being a diff (which I don't have) as well. Even with all of the "deals" and assistance from friends, my wife is still reading the riot act with respect to price. She thinks a car's purpose is to get from point A to point B. If she only knew how much this motor would cost if I drove into a shop and said "build this"...

I'm trying to get the motor apart as quickly as possible to get everything out to where they need to go. Machine shop, powdercoaters, cad platers, polishers, etc. I figure 2-4 weeks to get the case, crank, rods, heads, etc back from Ollie's and than we can start to assemble the bottom end. In the meantime, plenty of time for cleaning. 2-3 hours per night 3-4 nights a week will have to suffice.

One more pic to share: forget about my bucket of bolts in the foreground, check out the 935 conversion going on in the background. Didn't get any pics of Vision's 993TT and GT3 Cup car leaving for the NASA race at Sears Point though. Next time.



Ralph

[89911]

Running 10.3 to 1 on 94 octane gas. I also used Ollie's for all my machine work. They came out perfect.

[dickster]

sounds like a great project - keep us posted.

[Wil Ferch]

Question:
Can you still consider going 3.4 instead of 3.5?

I believe 3.4 will be a cylinder/pot "drop-in"...but a 3.5 requires machining the case. Enough of a difference to warrant the extra $ labor, etc ???

Wil

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Question:
Can you still consider going 3.4 instead of 3.5?

I believe 3.4 will be a cylinder/pot "drop-in"...but a 3.5 requires machining the case. Enough of a difference to warrant the extra $ labor, etc ???

Wil

Wil, in my opinion the extra $$ is worth it but you bring up a good point. It's really not a substantial price difference. It's only approx. $150 to enlarge the case spigots and you need a small chamfer on the heads regardless if using 98's or 100's. Theoretically, it is an extra 4% or so power increase just for the displacement increase. I've known George and Ike at Ollies's for over 15 years, they can do this in their sleep.

Besides, in my case, the Mahle 100's were about $500 cheaper than 98's for whatever reason.

The 3.5L option is not for everyone and may not be the best choice for most people. The main drawback is the fact that once you bore the case spigots, you are committed to a 3.5L or 3.6L (using a C2 crank with piston mods). If anything is to go wrong, you can't remove the 100's and go back to stock 95's or 98's. With 98's, you can always go back to stock 95's if you have to.

My worry is a few years down the road finding cylinders as Mahle is pretty much ceasing production on alot of different piston and cylinder sets. NASCAR is where they want to be and the Porsche market is miniscule for them even though they dominate it.

Ralph

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by 89911
Running 10.3 to 1 on 94 octane gas. I also used Ollie's for all my machine work. They came out perfect.

I envy you, I bet you don't have any detonation issues at all and it gives Steve quite a bit more leeway. What kind of oil temps are you running during "spirited" driving? Since you also have SSI's, I assume that you kept your heat. How did your mechanic alter the heater tube to clear the 993 distributor? At Andial, we just kind of tried to "reform" them and than make a small plate to cover the hole in the tube, but I am curious as to what other people do. Another reason to run headers!!!

Ralph

[JP911]

Congratulations Ralph! I must say that I'm envious right now, and I can't wait to start work on my own motor. Of course that will be at least a year from now. See you on the 19th!
-Jon

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by JP911
Congratulations Ralph! I must say that I'm envious right now, and I can't wait to start work on my own motor. Of course that will be at least a year from now. See you on the 19th!
-Jon

Hi Jon, are you heading up to GAF in Ventura this weekend? If not, than I'll see you on the 19th at Richard's.

[Wil Ferch]

Thanks for the info on the 3.5 vs 3.4....

Might be interesting to others on knowing the options....

As to piston/cylinder sets.....you then may end up having to go to Cosworth....they even do individual units.

Wil

[JP911]

Ralph-
I'm heading up to Ventura for the day on Sunday with a few friends (Bert will be with us). We will definitely be at the swap meet. Hope to see you there.
-Jon

[Carrera3.5L]

Today's update:

Removed the exhaust system, which was surprisingly easy. The head/heat exchanger nuts were really rusty and I thought that they might pose a problem but a little liquid wrench (didn't sit for more than 30 seconds) and they came right off, no fuss.

Than removed all of the outer sheet metal and got it ready for powdercoat. The Motronic system was next and that came off quite easily as well. I have alot of hoses to replace, as some of them don't look great and nows the time to do it.

Than tackled getting the fan, alternator and fan shroud off which wasn't any big deal. The night ended with removing the cam oil lines and the chain housing covers. That is where I am at.

About 2.5 hours of work tonight, not too bad. Just have a longblock staring at me now and I figure another 2-3 hours of work and everything will be completely apart.

Ralph

[Paulporsche]

Sounds like a great project. Good luck w/ it.

But..."Summer is unofficially over in Southern California" (!!!!!!!!!???????)

ROFLMAO