[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

What isn't Jeff? Isn't the central focus of this board about racing and performance machines made to stoke man's ego and competitive spirit?

Aint that kind of what drives our entire species to excel? Isn't it, you know, what defines us?

Hunting can be an escape from all of that.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

.223 cal is illegal to even hunt large game with in most states.

How you gonna knock the hunter for using legal calibers with "overkill" potential to add a safety margin in a charge or to prevent excessive suffering by scoring a quick clean kill?

Lame Jeff. Quite lame.

I realize that the .223 is illegal in most states. That does not take away from the fact that it is the most popular caliber in Alaska, and that native Alaskans use it to good effect.

Please show me where I "knocked" legal hunters for using legal calibers. I simply did not.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I know a guy that hunts whitetails with a .22LR at night, shoots them right in the eye using a street lamps reflection(he does not self illuminate them ever). is this guy a "real hunter" (the man has killed hundreds of deer), or a filthy poacher?

You tell me.

I'm sure you already know. What does this have to do with anything I said?

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I knew another fellow that owns a bar in upstate Pa, an old timer (probably dead now), who had a Black bear head over the bar. He shot it something like 11 times with a .30-30 in a charge situation. After examination he said he felt like most of the hits were clean killing shots. This guy was a looooong time hunter. He went out and bought a .300 Weatherby magnum after that IIRC.

I'm sorry but IMO a .30-30 is inadequate for killing large Grizzlies if things don't go according to plan. Considering that Murphy is a hunter, it's wise to plan for the unexpected. I would not even use a .30-06, and i think very, very few "experts" would recommend anything that small either.
Sure old old old time hunters used weaker weapons. Old old old time hunters also got killed and mauled more often too.

Something to consider.

Seriously, IMO, the desire to use too little weapon to prove your hunting skill(to yourself or anyone else) is IMO far more ego based than using too much. And far less humane- and obviously far less safe.

Phil Shoemaker, a Master Guide in Alaska, is on record as saying he would happily hunt the biggest bears in the land with his .30-'06. Mr. Shoemaker "gets it". Shot placement is far more important than caliber. No .300 wonder mag will ever make up for that. Too many that use them believe that they will, and wind up taking risky or poor shots with them

I have never expressed any desire to use too little weapon. I was simply pointing out what others use, and how effective they are with their choice of weapons. I regularly hunt with the .375 H&H, .45-70 with my heavy hand loads, and the .458 Winchester Magnum. Alas, I also use calibers that guys like you would deem "inadequate", like the .30-30, 6.5 Swede (my favorite, actually), and round ball muzzle loaders. When used properly, all kill quickly and humanely, regardless the size of the animal. When we take the time to hunt them, and have the patience to wait for that one sure shot.